Tough Technique

[BillyMack]

Here's a new technique I've been practicing lately...it's basically a FSP into OTES combined with RSP then it repeats...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HgVRg0z5bI

I'm also using my new Everlast Pro 9x6 which is an awesome bag, similar to Title's yellow 9x6 but a little rounder and heavier...

I'm also using a metal swivel now...a lot louder but gives smoother rebounds so I'm lovin it...

[Kevdawg0324]

i just went outside and tried it. its pretty cool. i like how fast it all comes together. cool combo billymack.

i did fsp directly into otes directly to rsp. one rebound in between each hit. does that sound right?

[BillyMack]

Sweet, ya, it's a lot of fun yet easy enough to do with basic skills. Ya, you got it right except after the OTES there are 2 rebounds before the reverse punch then 2 more rebounds until you can start the technique again.

As per Alan Kahn's terminology, a technique is when the bag only rebounds once and when the bag rebounds twice it becomes a combo.

Got any vids, Kevdawg?

[Kevdawg0324]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTUC89ZRv7M

me trying the billymack technique;)

[Kevdawg0324]

ill post another vid in a few. but it wont have any sound. my camera doesnt have sound. sorry.

[Kevdawg0324]

by the way, the video of me doing your tech. has a 9x6 title bag.

[BillyMack]

nice, dude...I love your platform....looks so solid and bulletproof...

[Kevdawg0324]

thank you billymack. i am downloading another video as we speak. i havent done one in a while so i recorded a little clip of me doing various combos.

[Kyle]

nice job both of you. kevdawg i also really like that platform dose not move at all
________
How to make a vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/)

[Kevdawg0324]

thank you big nesticals. its my pride and joy!:D

[speedboy]

i will try this!! thanks all!!

[BillyMack]

Here's the same technique modified after some suggestions from Alan Kahn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyENeoOXQf8

[Kevdawg0324]

what exactly are the punches being thrown?

[Speedbag]

Here's the same technique modified after some suggestions from Alan Kahn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyENeoOXQf8

I like it much better here. Nothing wrong with the other first combination as a starting point, but my personal preference is to see it done smoothly in a continuous alternating manner with either arm leading. Than you own it.

Years ago, when I would "experiment" with movements like this, I would first try each "New" technique or combo within the Basic Rhythm. Does it most easily follow a Front Circle Punch FCP (an outward motion) or a Front Straight Punch FSP (an inward motion)? Next, I would try to go to the new movement from EVERY other technique to see how they joined (if they did).

This combo, (to me ..) doesn't follow either FCP or FSP very smoothly, because the set up motion has the arms moving a bit unnaturally to pull it off. An Outward Triple Elbow Strike (O-TES) doesn't naturally follow the Front Straight Punch of the "other Arm". Try it slowly. Do the Basic Rhythm Slowly and after any FSP, try an OTES with the other arm. A more natural movement is to follow a FSP with the OTES with the same arm. BillyMack shows joining these movements in this manner is absolutely possible, but it is an awkward motion to me. That is why I would personally would call what he is doing an advanced punching combination, for he is joining two front techniques (FSP) and (OTES) with ONE rebound in between instead of three.

OK. that is just me. Now examine what BillyMack is doing. The heart or "secret" of his combination is TWO techniques, the Front Straight Punch (FSP) and the Outward Triple Elbow Strike (OTES) with one rebound in between. The trick is getting the lead FSP to hit the bag and quickly circle back to be the end punch of the OTES. Pretty slick the way he figured that out.

OK, now move to the Reverse Technique(s). He originally did this with a Reverse Single Punch (RSP), which naturally made the combination repeat with the same arm leading the combo. My suggestion was to make the Reverse Single Punch a Reverse Double Punch (RDP), which puts both hands behind the bag. then, by rotating the fist order (another advanced movement) of the RDP, it naturally allows this combo to be repeated on the "other side", so now the OTES is moved from arm to arm. To me, that looks much better and shows more control. You could also go the Reverse Fist Roll (R-Roll).

BillyMack: Your combination also Follows a Side Double Punch pretty easily. Do a L-R Side Double Punch. the lead (left first) of the SDP will then be your leading FSP as the second fist (from the side of the bag) pulls across the chest to set up for the OTES. It will look like this.

L-R (SDP) ' ' L (FSP) ' Right (OTES)

Also, since you originally did this with a RSP, let the last fist (FSP) of the OTES go to the side and make the RSP a Reverse-Side Double Punch (R-SDP). Your elbow hits the bag, and the same fist passes to the Reverse. your next fist (FSP) hits and does a quick flip to the side. that gets your hands ready for the (R-SDP).

Using the R-SDP will also naturally rotate the whole combo from one arm to the other. it looks like this:

L(FSP) ' R(O-TES) ' ' R-L(R-SDP) ' ' R(FSP) ' L(O-TES) ' ' L-R(R-SDP) ' ' .....repeat

(:D Also works nicely after a front reverse split fist. The RSP fist connects, and that arm draws up for the OTES)

[Kevdawg0324]

all right guys. so i went outside this morning and tried the technique. i did a little twist on it though. on the second part of the combo (with the opposite arm) can i do a dtes?

it would sequence like this; left fsp ' right otes ' ' rdp ' ' right fsp ' left dtes.

i dont know if i denoted this right. but i think im doing a downward where billymack is doing an outward. sound good? ill try to post a vid sometime today if i can.

[Kevdawg0324]

the technique is a little easier to me if i do both dtes instead of otes because my hand wont get in the way when in transition. try it that way billymack. i think youll find it easier as i did.

[Speedbag]

Kevdawg0324

I am assuming your "left FSP ' DTES" means the lead fist to the Downward Triple is the FSP? Again, that is a slightly awkward motion, for the FSP moves inward to the bag, and so does the downward elbow. I (just me..) rarely join and "inward" motion of one arm with the inward motion of the other.

Consider doing a Front Double Punch, (FDP) which I normally mean a leading Front Circle Punch (FCP) (outward motion) with a FSP or FCP. Now trying doing the FDP with a FSP ' FSP. Feels weird to me, but possible. How would you differentiate (name) a FDP with different leading fists? It's not a big deal, but the different fist position really changes the arm movements and corresponding combinations. Writing combo's to include all these differences would be impossible.

Same thing with a Front Fist Roll, (F-Roll) which is also possible with continuously alternating FSP ' FSP ' FSP ... etc. {The fist don't Roll over each other, but it works} Again, how would you differentiate this (actually, the man who taught me called continuous alternating FSP ' FSP - fist riveting.)

The point is; I would say your variation with the downward is a "Front Straight Punch to a Downward Double Elbow Strike with one rebound inbetween" and write it like this:

FSP ' D-DES

It is a small difference, but there are several variations of writing techniques and it can become confusing to understand what the movement is. I've long known the above movement which is a fist - elbow- fist with one rebound inbetween, was possible, but I didn't think the FSP lead fist was an easy or natural connection with the Downward motion of the other arm so I didn't add it as a technique. there are many ways to join the fist and elbows with one rebound, but some just didn't flow smoothly to me.

That is also why I wouldn't call BillyMack's movement a "technique" but rather and advanced combination. what would the technique name be? and the set up for the OTES after a FSP of the other arm is not really easy or smooth.

Actually, if you want to have fun - Do a Downward Triple ES and have the lead fist come back and follow with a FSP after one rebound. Try this combo.

(LRR)D-TES ' (L)FSP ' (RRL)OTES ' ' (R)RSP ' ' (RLL)D-TES ' (R)FSP ' (LLR)OTES ' ' (L)RSP ' ' ...repeat.
(* the bag is hit seven times in a row with one rebound in between before the RSP.) This is just doing BillyMack's combo after a DTES with one rebound after the DTES. You might want to air punch it first.

[Kevdawg0324]

i have messed with this combo a lot today and this is what i have come up with that works really well for me;

start with split fist with the left hand hitting from the front and right hand in the back, then transition the left hand into (l)fsp ' (rrl)dtes ' ' rdp ' ' (r)fsp ' (llr)dtes.......

i found that this position that the dtes left me in was much more comfortable as opposed to using the otes.

[Speedbag]

i have messed with this combo a lot today and this is what i have come up with that works really well for me;

start with split fist with the left hand hitting from the front and right hand in the back, then transition the left hand into (l)fsp ' (rrl)dtes ' ' rdp ' ' (r)fsp ' (llr)dtes.......

i found that this position that the dtes left me in was much more comfortable as opposed to using the otes.

Hmmm. Just by looking at your written combination I am confused as to what you're combo is. You are stating a "dtes" with a fist order that I don't understand. your are showing the first two contact points on the SAME arm:

Your symbol. (rrl)dtes:

Look above at the fist order of my Downward Triple ES. : (RLL)D-TES.
Using three lines to show the order of contact: that is

.R \ L-L
(D-TES)
.f \ e-f

the lead fist [ R ] in my symbol connects in a Front Circle Punch (FCP) position, but even IF your lead fist connects in the Front Straight Punch position (FSP) position, the order of connection would still be RLL, not RRL. that is the connection order of a Outward Triple Elbow Strike. (OTES).

I still think you mean a Downward Double, or your written connection order was in error. Or perhaps I need to see it on video. but I also like the Downward movement in this mix.

[Kevdawg0324]

ill post something today in a new thread to see if i cant clear it up for you.:)

[BillyMack]

Here's some more footage of this technique combined with split fist....fun stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWKibd7s7QY

[Kevdawg0324]

looking good billymack. nice transitioning. keep up the good work. ill work on a couple of fun combos over the next few days and try to post something cool soon. among other things, im working over a (lrr)dtes ' (ll)ddes ' front fist roll......
a small combo, but still challenging.

[Speedbag]

Here's some more footage of this technique combined with split fist....fun stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWKibd7s7QY

Very Nice combinations. Great split fisting off the elbows techniques.

looking good billymack. nice transitioning. keep up the good work. ill work on a couple of fun combos over the next few days and try to post something cool soon. among other things, im working over a (lrr)dtes ' (ll)ddes ' front fist roll...... a small combo, but still challenging.

KevDawg,

Your notation of this combo is correct but under the board, here is a tip that might make this combo easier.

...note that the Downward Triple ES is a "Fist-Elbow-Fist" combo. Consider the LAST fist of your (LRR) DTES. If you follow this fist with the DDES, you are really doing another DTES, using the last fist of the first elbow strike as the lead fist of the next downward triple. Basically that fist strike on the bag is the last fist of the first downward Triple, AND the lead fist of the NEXT downward triple.

the Same thing with the DDES ' F-Roll. the last fist of the "elbow-fist" DDES (L-L) is also the lead fist of the Front Roll.

In that theory, you could also write you combo. (the bold fistis actually the SAME fist contact. )

L/R-R...R/L-L....L-R-L-R
DTES ' DTES.. ' (F-Roll)
f/e-f.....f/e-f

or your way is:

L/R-R.. L-L .... R-L-R
DTES ' DDES ' (F-Roll)
f/e-f ....e-f

I just want you to consider the theory of the last fist on one technique also being the lead fist of another. That will really help when you move to the more complex super advanced combo's when the fists contact from different sides of the bag.

You can really get a good snap on the fist of the "Elbow-Fist" DDES to use it as the lead fist of your F-Roll. For me, it makes it easier.

[Kevdawg0324]

i understand what your saying. im still trying to get the notation down. thanks for being patient and explaining it to me.:)

[Kevdawg0324]

what makes a super advanced combo by definition?

[Speedbag]

what makes a super advanced combo by definition?

Great question. The "advanced cominations" terminology that I use depends on where the fists hit on the bag.

Advanced Punching Combinations have two criteria. First, all the parts of the combination hit the SAME SIDE of the bag. Second, they move up to ONE REBOUND inbetween rather than three. A third criteria might be that the last fist of a technique will also be the lead fist of another technique. So your above cominations fit that definition. Same For FDP ' FDP ' OTES. Very easy with three rebounds, not so easy on ONE rebound.

Super Advanced Punching Combinations have two criterial. First, the parts of the combination hit DIFFERENT SIDEs of the bag, second is they occur with one rebound inbetween rather than two or three, and usually the last fist of one technique is the lead fist of the next.

These combinations almost always require the Side Single Punch (SSP) to be used somewhere in the combination to "roll your fists" around the bag, moving from one side to the other.

and example is The Side Double Punch to Reverse Double Punch. written like

SDP ' ' ' RDP. Very easy on three rebounds.

super advanced combo = SDP ' RDP
fist order = [ L-R ' L-R ] ( Front - Side ' Reverse-Reverse)

The word "super" denotes different sides of the bag within the combo. I created that term because I had already used the term "advanced" for combo's on the SAME side and decided that term was the most descriptive, for they are normally a little more difficult than those on the same side, and they look "super" when you pull it off, which only happens about 3/4 of the time. This where I accidently discovered lots of combinations. You can really get lost in these.

[Kevdawg0324]

so you use the ssp as a vehicle to get to the front/back of bag through one rebound? like a fdp ' ssp ' rdp?

[Speedbag]

so you use the ssp as a vehicle to get to the front/back of bag through one rebound? like a fdp ' ssp ' rdp?


Absolutely correct.

In fact, your exact written exercise is shown as exerice #3A on page 146 of chapter 10, advanced combinations.

(* note, the SSP and first punch of the RDP = SSP ' RSP, or the Side-Reverse Double Punch: [S-RDP] )

[Kevdawg0324]

cool! ive practiced that before. ill post it for you to look at.