Countersinking swivels for faster rebounds

[eoneel]

Hi Speed Bag Forum. Great forum I might add. I had a question about swivels.
I replaced my stock swivel with a Delux Pro Swivel from Title Boxing. I like it very much. I was thinking about getting a Platinum Pro Swivel and wanted to know if anybody has had any experiences with both and which they liked better out of the two. Disadvantages and advantages. Thanks for any reply's!
:)

[Kyle]

ive used both and from my experience i prefer the platinum but both are really the same swivel just ones a little longer than the other therefore making slower because the bag has to travel a further distance. i also like it because its quiet compared to other swivels like the ball/hook.the only problems really is that it is not as easy to change plains as the ball/hook.
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[Chris M]

I have both swivels and I don't think you'll notice any huge difference. The platinum pro swivel is a little longer so you'll notice the bag will actually be slower.

Other than that, the platinum pro swivel is made of stainless steel so it won't rust. At least the version of the platinum pro swivel that I have is. Also, the platinum pro swivel has very fine threads and it tends to work loose very easily. (The pro swivel has no threads and is a one piece unit) I need to put thread locker on mine. I use this swivel on my indoor unit because it's a little quieter and I'm honestly seriously considering putting my extra metal ball hook swivel back up because I'm wanting to do more side hits and the latter swivel is more conducive to side hits and from hitting from different angles is easier because those swivels (the ball/hook swivels) can change directions easier because of the mechanics of the swivel.

The deluxe pro swivel is faster and the action is the same.

Of the two, I prefer the pro swivel but I do like the smaller swivel loop on the platinum swivel over the pro swivel, I can stick my thumb into the opening of the pro swivel and I don't like that because I have to use tape to keep the bag from riding from side to side when I do side hits.

Deluxe Pro swivel: http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/titleboxing_1942_25511273

Platinum Pro swivel: http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/titleboxing_1942_25517365

[eoneel]

Big-Nesticles and Chris M, thank you very much for the detailed description of the Delux pro swivel and the platinum pro swivel. I am going to have to go with the Delux pro swivel based on what you said. I know exactly what you mean about side shots. It is difficult to keep the rebound true without a ball hook swivel. But I like the action of the ones like the Delux pro and Platinum pro so much that stay with them. Now if I could only remember where my tape is.

[Speedbag]

For many years, an interesting thought always occurred to me about swivel length, and then a couple of years ago, my suspicion proved correct.

My thought was: IF the board was a really thick piece of wood, and you could countersink the swivel, say 1/2 inch into the board,.... you could shorten the rebound arc and thus increase the speed factor of any bag you used.

Enter a guy named "Jim" who actually designed a unique little device he called a "speed ring". It was a circular metal Ring that could attach to the board, thus shortening the rebound arc, by lowering the rebound surface.
The attached ring was an inch or two (actually, it was adjustable..) below the board. Depending on the bag size, the bag would contact the metal bar either just above or on the belly of the bag. The bag would rebound over the ring a bit, then spring back faster.

This recessed the swivel up higher in relation to the ring. It also gave an interesting "sling" effect to the bag, for an 11x8 would hit the ring, actually bend in - hit the board, then fire back. It did make it faster. That is why he called it the speed ring.

He contacted me Jan 2003 about this idea, and sent me the plans. We designed a "test" to see what difference it would make. He was very good on the bag, old school triplet rhythm, very fast on any size bag. SO with a clock visible behind him (on screen), he would hit an 11x8 and a 9x6 as fast as he could for one minute on a metal ballhook swivel. He did it on both bags, first without the ring, then with it. After a 10 second "warm up" he would punch as fast as he could go, and then count the right FCP total for ONE minute. One minute all out is a long time. He had a large clock on the wall behind the bag so he could see it and it was on camera also.

The end result, after three of four tests on different days, was that Without the ring, the 9x6 bag was always faster than the 11x8, with a higher punch total. But WITH the Ring on the board, the 11x8 bag was as fast as the 9x6 without the ring. I can't remember the exact totals ( I guess I could try and dig up the videotape...) but it went something like this. without the ring, (longer rebound arc) he could hit the 11x8 about 110 times in one minute. WITH the ring attached, he could get 130 punches in one minute, which was equal to the 9x6 without the ring. The 9x6 was also about 10% faster when the ring was attached.

I had him film this in high speed shutter so the slow motion is clearer. You could clearly see the bag give on the metal ring, bend over it, contact the board, then rebound back. I suspect the air was futher compressed within the bag - and the rebound arc was clearly shorter. He was going to attempt a patent and all that. He also sent me a prototype with instructions.

But the idea of simply recessing a swivel up into the board would also shorten the rebound arc and probably add speed. Anyone with a really thick board and the tools to counter sink the center swivel area might give this a try. (on a spare board).

[Chris M]

But the idea of simply recessing a swivel up into the board would also shorten the rebound arc and probably add speed. Anyone with a really thick board and the tools to counter sink the center swivel area might give this a try. (on a spare board).With a plunge router and a guide template the size of the circle you wanted that would be very easy to accomplish.

If anyone has a board they would like me to do this to, if you'll pay shipping I'll be glad to do it for free anyone here. All you need to do is send me the board and the swivel and I'll countersink it as far as you'd like. I don't anticipate this taking me more than 30 minutes tops so it's not like I'll have a big time investment into it.

I don't see turnaround time being very long, whatever the shipping time is plus one or two days depending on what day I get it.

[Speedbag]

With a plunge router and a guide template the size of the circle you wanted that would be very easy to accomplish.

If anyone has a board they would like me to do this to, if you'll pay shipping I'll be glad to do it for anyone here. All you need to do is send me the board and the swivel and I'll countersink it as far as you'd like.

This man ( BEN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVtLNsOJnIo) ) actually sent me a gorgeous custom made board years ago. Huge and heavy, three inches think with a beautiful marbled stain and watersealed. I never put it up because my cheap little horizontal frame tubes wouldn't hold it. I gave it to a guy who was building a custom unit in his garage for him and his kids. That would have been a great board to try this on, now that I have a frame that would hold it.

[jason_m_amy]

With a plunge router and a guide template the size of the circle you wanted that would be very easy to accomplish.

If anyone has a board they would like me to do this to, if you'll pay shipping I'll be glad to do it for free anyone here. All you need to do is send me the board and the swivel and I'll countersink it as far as you'd like. I don't anticipate this taking me more than 30 minutes tops so it's not like I'll have a big time investment into it.

I don't see turnaround time being very long, whatever the shipping time is plus one or two days depending on what day I get it.

Chris, I like your idea - I have the iBox, do you think that board would allow me to do the countersink you describe? I'm not sure of the material of the board, but I'm don't think it's particle board (would it even work on particle board)?

I've used a plunge router before, I'll go buy one specifically for this as maybe I'll find another use for it after I'm done.

Thanks, Jason

[Kyle]

The iBox comes with MDF wood.
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[Roscoe]

With a plunge router and a guide template the size of the circle you wanted that would be very easy to accomplish......"

Chris M, I just started using Forester bits to counter-sink the bolts holding my drum up. Wouldn't a large enough Forester bit get the job done to counter-sink the swivel? Do they make them that big?:confused:

Thanks in advance.

Roscoe

[Chris M]

Chris M, I just started using Forester bits to counter-sink the bolts holding my drum up. Wouldn't a large enough Forester bit get the job done to counter-sink the swivel? Do they make them that big?:confused:

Thanks in advance.

Roscoe

There are two challenges with Forstner bits. 1. They are very expensive and 2., when using large Forstner bits, you have to use them with a variable speed drill or drill press set at very low speeds because they are removing so much material at once. If you try to use these bits at higher speed, they overheat and quickly burn the wood and dull your very expensive bit. If you have access to a drill press, that would be the best way to go, otherwise, a variable speed drill will work if you're patient. Trust me, I've ruined a couple of these bits to have learned the hard and expensive way.

The largest bit I could find was 2 1/4" and that sucker is ~$75! http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=1917 (you probabably can find one cheaper, but I strongly believe in buying good tools when I need them so I have them forever. It does save money in the long run) I think that would work depending on the diameter of your swivel. Another option would be to use a smaller drill bit with a drill press using the depth stop, you could make or countersink a hole as large as you wanted.

The only other thing to be aware of is that you probably wouldn't want to go more than 3/4" into the Ibox MDF drum otherwise you're risking breaking the board when you start hammering away on the bag.

Good luck!

Chris

[Chris M]

Chris, I like your idea - I have the iBox, do you think that board would allow me to do the countersink you describe? I'm not sure of the material of the board, but I'm don't think it's particle board (would it even work on particle board)?

I've used a plunge router before, I'll go buy one specifically for this as maybe I'll find another use for it after I'm done.

Thanks, Jason

If you buy a router, you need to at least get one that is variable speed and if possible, a plunge router, although the plunge is not absolutely necessary. You definitely want to set it at the lower speed to keep from burning the bit. You could freehand it if you were careful, but for professional results, I'd recommend making a template for use with one of these type of bits:

http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=1862

[Kyle]

Wow thats alot of info i might try that once i make my new board in the summer you a carpenter Chris M?
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[Chris M]

Wow thats alot of info i might try that once i make my new board in the summer you a carpenter Chris M?

No, I used to make antique reproduction furniture as a hobby. Woodworking has been a hobby of mine for quite a while.

[Kyle]

its a hobby of mine too. one question what would you segest if i want to cut out a pefectly round circle (the size of a platform)?
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[Chris M]

its a hobby of mine too. one question what would you segest if i want to cut out a pefectly round circle (the size of a platform)?

When I did my platform I used a big compass that I have.

I have also done this:

Place a tack wherever you want your center of the board but don't tap it in all the way. Get a string, piece of thread, or fishing line and tie it around the tack, now make sure the tack is in but not hammered in all the way. Measure out the radius of the circle and tie or tape the string to your pencil or sharpie marker.

An easy way to find the center of any board is to use a straight edge make an "X" from opposite corners only if the board is symmetrical.

Make your circle!

[Kyle]

what tool would you suggest?
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[Chris M]

what tool would you suggest?

To cut the circle? A bandsaw would be best. If you go slow and have a new blade, you could use a jigsaw. A Scrollsaw would also work but it would be very slow.

If you want to do some sanding afterwards but want to get it done quick, you could even use a sawzall but those things are difficult to get a clean cut with. They're great for demolition work but it's like using a sledgehammer to put up paneling or drywall.

I've seen guys use tablesaws to cut circles with homebuilt jigs but it's very dangerous and I sure wouldn't do it. I've had boards kickback on me and I'll go out of my way to make sure it doesn't happen again, it's scary as hell.

[Roscoe]

its a hobby of mine too. one question what would you segest if i want to cut out a pefectly round circle (the size of a platform)?

I used the tack and string method Chris mentioned then used my Porter Cable 2 1/4 HP router with a 2 1/2 inch straight-cut router bit but the 2 1/4 inch pine was too much for it, kept bogging down :mad: so I adjusted the bit and routed one half of it then turned the drum over and routed the other half. I used a bar as a guide arm screwed into the middle of the drum and attached to the router. I cut it down to 32"s

Something I noticed: Those two 36" rounds of pine from Home Depot are slightly wavey so I broke out the belt sander to get the surface I was after.

[Speedbag]

To cut the circle? A bandsaw would be best. If you go slow and have a new blade, you could use a jigsaw. A Scrollsaw would also work but it would be very slow.

If you want to do some sanding afterwards but want to get it done quick, you could even use a sawzall but those things are difficult to get a clean cut with. They're great for demolition work but it's like using a sledgehammer to put up paneling or drywall....

Man, you knowledge in this area is amazing. We have a "Veteran Construction Team" in our vocational program, with a bunch of sawzalls for demolition only. Never use them for finish work.

[Kyle]

thanks for the info chris i plan on getting this done this summer with post picks wen its all done. i might go with i octagon im undecided.
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