Metal Ball And Hook Swivel Dangerous?

[KevinDesroches]

in 1997 i bought my first speed bag set up from sports authority , it was the chuck norris speed bag set , included a fiberglass -like plastic as the drum and basicaly was all plastic except it did come with the ball and hook everlast swivel.
well at the time i wasnt too informed about speed bag set ups and i didnt really know the way things should be done but i figured through trial and error id pic up on it sooner or later.
something was wrong from the begining because i couldnt get the bad to rebound correctly without really really hitting it hard, and i figured well this is probably how youre suppose to hit it . i wasnt aware that the boards bad rebounding effect was making me get very frustrated, i figured everything i needed shouldve ben included in this set so i must be hitting the bag wrong.
a few hours after hitting the bag one day my eye started botherin me, i didnt know what it was, i went to doctor and he said its pink eye and gave me the medicine for that.
to make a long story short it wasnt pink eye but a speck of metal off the swivel in my eye .even the eye doctor didnt believe it , he figured i was doin sum metal work or sumthing. i never even felt anything go in it , so i wasnt sure my self, so i didnt think too much about it. i fgured maybe i rubbed sumthing in my eye that was on my hand.
then it happend again , and i figured the swivel was bad, so i bought new one , everlast ball and hook all metal 2 piece.
it happend to me again, and even again! u would think id learn , but i never heard of anyone else having this problem so i was kinda in denial i guess.
eventualy i had t start wearin eye protection and i practiced that way from then on and i was fine
now i have a balasz pro set up that cost me $600 and its awesome. but i dont like the chain link. so i hooked my old ball hook on it and i love it , and im not having rebound problems so i dont have to hit like a maniac to make it rebound.
but im scared its gunna happen again! is this a normal occurance with the ball hook? i like the style the best cuz of the sound and reobounding but i dont wanna go back to eye doc and get steel removed from my eye again
did this ever happend to anyone else? i thought these 2 piece metal swivels were pretty durable and shoule be able to withstand any kind of punches. is there a limit to how hard i should hit the bag?
i wanna convince myself it was all because of a bad rebound board that made the steel virbate into my eye cuz i was punchin tooo hard too much.
Help me out here . i wanna go back to using the ball and hook cuz its the best sound for the rhythem stuff . someone tell me i wont get steel in the eye again cuz i have a better rebound board now!

[Speedbag]

HI Kevin,

Your story is very interesting, and actually confirms (for me anyway) what I was told by several of my speed bag supplier contacts when I asked why Everlast abandoned the two piece metal #440 and went to plastic.

I have repeated been told that the reason was complaints about the metal flaking off. I originally had two beliefs on this.

First, it was probably a financial consideration, saving production costs to mass produce a single piece in plastic. (remember, (old speedbaggers....) they had already tried the plastic base, and found that these threads stripped way too easy. Why not change the whole thing to a single piece plastic...). Notice, this signficantly lowered the retail price of their "S-HOOK" swivel from $14.95 to $9.95. When is the last time you saw a retail price on anything drop - with a product improvement??)

Second, IF the metal was flaking off, it was because they went to a lower cost, cheaper, softer metal. Many single piece metal S-Hooks do this. It has a soft metal housing, and after a few thousand rebounds (remember, housing gets hit three times for every single punch in the triplet rhythm, and twice for every pass through..).
My own inspections of my older (10-15 year old S-Hooks,) versus the newer ones confirms this, for the swivels I purchased in the last 90's and 2000, 2001 found the ball housing "giving" or "pounding down" faster. I have an old
#4440 S-Hook that I pounding for many years, with very little housing wear, and the metal S shank is still solid. It actually was retired about 1999 or 2000. It appears on the board here (http://media.putfile.com/Speedbag-punching) and in my teaching DVD's.

But regardless of "why" the metal flakes off, Judging by kevin's experience, it apparently WAS flaking off. It's possible that many people (thousands of swivels sold each year) who have nothing to do with metal fabrication or have any reason to seek medical help for occupational eye problems, may have had a similiar experience and contacted the company. IF that happened (personally don't know...) then I bet the lawyers got involved and said "ditch the metal".

As a point of concern, I'm wondering about the other Everlast metal Swivel #4444, such as: Everlast top Professional model (http://store.titleboxing.com/titleboxing-everlast-spdbagacc-proswiv-ets.html) and Swivels 2 & 4 (http://www.speedbagforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14) here on the forum or Balasz Boxing speed bag swivel (http://www.balazsboxing.com/cgi-bin/catalog2.cgi?action=page&page=gear|training%20accessories|speed%20and%20str iking%20bags|BS4444). None of these have metal Hitting metal, but they have metal shearing on metal as the chain connection turns near the housing on the board. I'm sure the force is light, since the bag and "punch force" is down away from this area, but in theory, metal flakes could come off. And as Kevin reports with the ballhook, the metal can land in your eyes.

Personally, this is my first contact with confirmation of metal in the eye. Having been under the board punching, rather aggressively at times, for over 30 years - I have sometimes gotten something in my eye but normally considered it to be a something off the cheap wafer board or dirt, dust on the bag. Or any eyelash, etc. I have never sought medical attention for it, and this is the first report (that I have heard) from someone who has.

All's I know is this: My friends at Titleboxing (Owners and equipment Quality Control staff) and Balazs Boxing told me that Everlast discontinued the two piece "S" hook "..due to complaints about the metallic dust or chips coming off"

I am sorry that happened to You, Kevin. It does give cause for concern about recommending members search for this swivel.

For anyone interested, My second favorite swivel is Swivel #3 on the forum link, or this Pro delux at Titleboxing (http://store.titleboxing.com/dps-ez.html) or here at Ringside Pro Delux (http://www.ringside.com/DETAIL.ASPX?ID=24601)

These swivels present a few issues I don't like, and I personally modify when I use one, but there is apparently no way the metal can flak off, for any contact is inside the housing.

Kevin, thanks for posting your experience. It has added greatly to this forum, where ALL speed bag issues are open for discussion.

[KevinDesroches]

as disapointing as it is ,its good to know i wasnt the only one who was having problems like that, i was just going to purchase an all metal one from the link in the other post beacause they do have them in stock but im not confindent in their integrity. i think ill try the # 3 and tape the bag in the middle as u suggested and see how that goes.
Thanks

[Speedbag]

as disapointing as it is ,its good to know i wasnt the only one who was having problems like that, i was just going to purchase an all metal one from the link in the other post beacause they do have them in stock but im not confindent in their integrity. i think ill try the # 3 and tape the bag in the middle as u suggested and see how that goes.
Thanks

OK. To review, I do Two things, both to secure the Speed Bag to the U-bar.

(1) First, with bag centered on the bar, I pull down on the bag to pull the attachment strap tight, and put a thin (1/2) strip of silver duct tape around the bag strap. the tape does not touch the metal bar, only squeezes the strap space smaller (* this is only needed if your bag has a long strap, which can cause it to lose contact with the bar and "float" over it if hit upwards)

(2). Second, With bag centered on bar, I use a longer 1/2 inch strip of duct tape, and figure-8 this around the bag strap edges and the bar. This actually tapes the bag onto the bar. I normally make a few turns. The first overlaps the bag edges on both sides and puts about half of that tape strip on the bar. the next one overlaps a little further out and puts a little more of the tape on the bar. That usually secures it, but a third turn can be made.

You have to be careful to have your bag centered and hanging straight, for if it is crooked when taped - it will hang crooked and rebound weird. With the bag taped straight to the bar, it will prevent the bag from "sliding along the bar".
When the bag can no longer "float" upward from a misshit, (this launches the bag off an S-hook..) or "slide" along the bar, then this is really a good quiet swivel. I find the action clean and gives a quality, predictable rebound. However, you should remember that adding the tape stips also adds the "weight of the tape", and if it's not centered, it can alter the bag movement. By keeping all the tape in the center of the bar, it keeps the action reliable.

If you do this and your bag seems to be rebound "funny", consider stripping off the tape the trying again.

[KevinDesroches]

Hmmmm, i like to change bags alot, that may not be the ticket for me then, what do u think of the plastic version of the ball hook as far as its resposiveness to how its being hit?

[Speedbag]

Hmmmm, i like to change bags alot, that may not be the ticket for me then, what do u think of the plastic version of the ball hook as far as its resposiveness to how its being hit?

To be perfectly honest, I have not personally hit one. I have heard from some people they are really nice (once you get the S-shaft glued into the ball...), and I have heard from others that don't like it. I get a lot of private email concerning speed bag equipment etc., and it seems to favor "liking it", as opposed to using the chain link versions.

In an attempt to purchase a small stash of the metal Ballhooks, I was also conned into ordering the metal shown picture, only to receive several of the plastic version. I haven't hung one to try it. I kept them for later research and to have this version before it becomes something else. I suppose I should put one up and try it to have first hand knowledge. Just haven't made the leap yet. I'm not sure how easy the newer thick strap bags go over that particular "S" shape. If you don't know what I'm talking about, the "S" hook shape has also changed over the years, as well as the bag straps that have to attach to them. What use to be easy can now be a royal pain.

changing bags on the super speed swivel is very fast, AFTER you take the tape off. They have on of these at the YMCA where I go (when they can find the bottom part...) and it takes me about 3 or 4 minutes to tape my bag on.

IF I was going to use the U-Bolt swivel as my constant home unit, I would get several of them and put one size bag on each. Then I'd just have to change bars, which is easy. But at $29 - $39 each, that's a pretty fair investment in swivels.

for me personally, I stick to an 8x5 bag mostly, and occasionally go to the 9x6. They are easier on my left shoulder (to be replaced in the not to distant future) and require less punching force to hit to the music I like.

[KevinDesroches]

thiat makes sense , i probably could survive right now just hanging the 5x8 i use, its really the sound of the ole ball and hook ill miss, guess if i really need to hear it i can put on the ole safetly glasses again and give up DES :(
on that subject, have u ever used the goggles with the strap around the head , i wonder if that maybe ok to use while DESing.
by the way im just realizing youre "THE" ALaN KAHN, the speed bag bible guy! i have the 4 videos and the bible ! thanks for making them cuz they definatly helped me out , i can say those videos and tapes taught me alll most the stuff i know now .
just wondering, what swivel does John Baca prefer? i noticed hes very good at the bag too, not as good as u though ;)

[Speedbag]

thiat makes sense , i probably could survive right now just hanging the 5x8 i use, its really the sound of the ole ball and hook ill miss, guess if i really need to hear it i can put on the ole safetly glasses again and give up DES :(
on that subject, have u ever used the goggles with the strap around the head , i wonder if that maybe ok to use while DESing.
by the way im just realizing youre "THE" ALAN KAHN, the speed bag bible guy! i have the 4 videos and the bible ! thanks for making them cuz they definatly helped me out , i can say those videos and tapes taught me alll most the stuff i know now .
just wondering, what swivel does John Baca prefer? i noticed hes very good at the bag too, not as good as u though ;)

I have never used any goggles like you describe, but those or glasses would work to protect the eyes. IF you wear glasses, be aware that the thumb on downward elbow stikes could clip the frames and knock them off your face. The wrap around goggles would probably be better.

The swivel you see on the video clips with Congressional Medal of Honor recipient John Baca (http://www.cmohs.org/recipients/living_cites_ab.htm) is a two piece ball hook #4440. I know because I gave it to him. Actually, I have given him several.

John is extremely good on the speed bag. He can do many of the advanced combinations I describe in the Book and videos. We are close friends and we get together at my place or his at least once a year. He learned how to hit by using the book, following the exercises and practicing the punching movements without the bag first, then trying them on the bag.

I remember the first time he ever contacted me. He was working as a ski lift helper at a ski resort in Maryland, and practicing one of the written exercises. He was convinced that my arm/hand sequence above the technique names was wrong. When I answered his phone call, he said he was a speed bag student using my book, and he wanted to tell me that one of the exercises in the Side Techniques chapter was wrong. He told me the page and exercise number. He was right. I had copied the Arm/hand sequence from another exercise, and forgot to change several of the differences. In fact, he has shown me a few slightly different ways to do some advanced front punching combination that I would now call the "Baca variations". As often happens, when you think you have reached the limit, there is a new way to do something.

I wish had some video clips of Lisa Perrone (http://www.tufts.edu/~lperro01/) hitting the bag. Believe it or not, I think she is just as fast and smooth as John. Both can mix in all the techniques. The have also met and trained together several times.

The best part is: YOU can do it also. I firmly believe everyone can learn to do it. :)

[Tim]

a few hours after hitting the bag one day my eye started botherin me, i didnt know what it was, i went to doctor and he said its pink eye and gave me the medicine for that.
to make a long story short it wasnt pink eye but a speck of metal off the swivel in my eye .even the eye doctor didnt believe it , he figured i was doin sum metal work or sumthing. i never even felt anything go in it , so i wasnt sure my self, so i didnt think too much about it. i fgured maybe i rubbed sumthing in my eye that was on my hand.
then it happend again , and i figured the swivel was bad, so i bought new one , everlast ball and hook all metal 2 piece.
it happend to me again, and even again! u would think id learn , but i never heard of anyone else having this problem so i was kinda in denial i guess.

Wow, never had that happen to me, that's pretty scary though, if there's one thing I don't want to mess with , it's my eyesight :(

Did you have the ball lubed with anything? I've used chassis grease or wd40 in the past and that seems to keep the metal particles trapped in a sludge like substance around the ball and hook... Seems like if it were dry that might not be the case. Chassis grease is pretty thick, it doesn't seem to slow the swivel down (IMO). Of course this won't help for particles of significant size...

The other thing I do is periodically clean off the metal sludge around the ball and hook. I've never done this for any particular reason other than because if you accidentally touch the stuff, it makes a mess :(

[Speedbag]

Actually, Tim that's a great point. I always lube my swivel ball and housing similiarly with light machine oil. It kills the annoying "squeek" that can occur with metal rubbing. The oil could trap and hold metallic dust, dirt etc.

[KevinDesroches]

i use to lube the bearing inside too yea. but when im looking at this thing now its looks to me like it was the eye hook bar that was breaking off as it was hitting the housing, i couldbe wrong , im gunna take a pic of it and show it here to see for yourself

[KevinDesroches]

i actulay ben trying out the plastic version of this style and allthough it has a pretty true response to the angle of punch its slower and seems to lack life when getting into it. so now im using this metal again WITH MY SAFTEY GLASSES cuz lemme tell ya after goin to the eye doc 3 times to get steel removed im gunna go bankrupt

[Tim]

i actulay ben trying out the plastic version of this style and allthough it has a pretty true response to the angle of punch its slower and seems to lack life when getting into it. so now im using this metal again WITH MY SAFTEY GLASSES cuz lemme tell ya after goin to the eye doc 3 times to get steel removed im gunna go bankrupt

How many different metal swivels have you tried? Could it be possible the one you got is way sub-standard ? Mine does appear to have wear on the eye hook as well, but I really have never had a problem with getting anything in my eyes, or noticed metal anywhere else for that matter.

[KevinDesroches]

i had 2 metal ball and hooks , the first one i had came with the chuck norris set
i had the same problem with both swivels with chips of metal breaking off.
both swivels sent me to the eye doctor. the speck of steel that comes off it is about the size of a speck of salt from a salt shaker. i never feel it when it goes in , but usualy a few hours later i would get that sensation of something in my eye, and u would have to look very closely to see it because its a very small chip. i remember the first day it happend , when night cam and it was time to sleep . i couldnt keep my eye shut because it was irritated and kept watering.
i really dont know why it keeps happening, but just yesterday, i was using the swivel again(with the safety glasses) and i noticed a speck of something on my arm, i wondered if it was a speck of steel, so took a magnet to it and sure enough it was
its very scary , by the third time i went to the eye doctor he said my eyeball was startin to look like the moon with craters on it
i really like the ball and hook metal swviel though, so i still use it but i wont without saftey glasses, and im buying more metal ones, but which one is made of the stronger steel?? who wants to find out?

[KevinDesroches]

allen i was wondering if the 2 piece metal swivel was better made than the 1 piece with the plastic backing plate

[Speedbag]

allen i was wondering if the 2 piece metal swivel was better made than the 1 piece with the plastic backing plate

I can't really answer that for I haven't used the one piece plastic swivel. Some here on the forum say it has good action, after welding/supergluing it the hook shank into the plastic ball.

[dbfin]

Alan,
May I ask why you need to have your shoulder replaced?
Thank you.

[Speedbag]

Alan,
May I ask why you need to have your shoulder replaced?
Thank you.

Sure. I was a gym rat for years, with lots of upperbody work, presses and racquetball. I have have had several surgeries on both shoulders (and knees, elbow etc.). The most recent was left shoulder in January 2006. the finding was: there is very little cartilage left on the humeral head or within the glenoid socket. Some areas, particularly the posterior part of the socket, is now bone on bone, causing the serious, biting pain of some movements. Cartliage regeneration (http://www.orthoassociates.com/carticel.htm) procedures work for the knees (read here also (http://www.arthroscopy.com/sp08014.htm)), but shoulders are still a few years off.

Just about any "functional" movements (for our purposes, Punching the speed bag) is painful. Not excruciating (mostly... some movements more than others), but enough to severly limit my lifestyle. This is not an "exercise issue" that can be fixed by rehabilitation exercises. I have recently met with a shoulder replacement specialist in Dallas who is on the leading edge of replacement strategies for the younger, more aggressive individual, such as myself. ( that actually includes most people under 60 - 65 years old. Shoulders are a non-weight bearing joint, and just aren't replaced nearly as much as knees and hips. I know lots of 45+ people with artificial hips and knees.)

and, believe it or not, Using the speed bag is not the only sport, fitness or movement activity that I do in life. Most have been stopped over the last year because of this left shoulder issue. In fact, if not for some work related issues over the next few months, I would have already scheduled the surgery.

I do not fear the surgery nearly as much as the lifestyle limitations imposed if I do not have it. Personally, since I survived the cervical spine laminectomies (http://www.speedbagcentral.com/ssp/rehab_training/Rhythm_and_Rehab) and came back full tilt on the speed bag then I will prevail over a shoulder replacement.

[KevinDesroches]

allen, sorry i ment the metal ball and hook with the plastic backplate ,do u think that when they started making that version they maybe started using a lower grade metal for the housing? because i see lots of people (in pictures anyways) using the all metal (backplae and ballhook) and not ever have a problem as u mentioned u never did either . so i was wondering if maybe the all metal version was made a little better than when they switched the backing plate to plastic even though the housing remained metal , maybe they figured to cut cost even less and use cheaper metel?

[Speedbag]

I have had several two piece ball hooks with a plastic base attachment to the board, and a metal attachment (lower part) to the bag, with a metal ballhook inside. The problem you site would be the same in this swivel, for the metal ballshank still hits steel/metal housing. As far as cheaper metal being used, my opinion is YES, the product was probably changed to a lesser (lower price) material.

You can see the two piece plastic base and metal bag attachment swivel in in this videoclip (http://media.putfile.com/Speedbag-Blugrass-medly) after the opening. On all the fiddle/bluegrass songs, look at the swivel and you will see a black plastic base with a metal bag attachment. I used this swivel until I took this board down and replaced it with the SKU 400 (http://www.primefighter.com/images/Model400lg%20revised.jpg). This board and swivel are now hanging in my garage, where I have two identical boards next to each other.

but I have never had any steel dust or chips in my eye from a metal swivel. At least not that I know of.

[KevinDesroches]

very cool bag dancing in that clip allen :) besides speedbaggin, im also a guitar player and i do lots of recording. i recently set up my drum machine down near my speedbag set up and ive ben programin beats to jam to. im finaly startin to see how the bag fits in to the rhythem more and more. watchin ur clips of u jammin to tunes inspired me to do that kind of punch drummin.
on the topic of the metal chips again, i think because i had my last board set up high and because i was punchin so hard to get it to rebound normaly that caused the chips to land on my eye.
i did a little experiment with the chain link swivel too. i was just dangling it around and kind of simulating the rebounding effect on the swivel when being punched over a white piece of poster paper , and after bout 3 minutes it left chips on the paper not as many as the ball and hook but enough to take notice. why dont they just make these damn things right!

[dbfin]

Alan,
Thank you for the reply. I hope that all goes well with your surgery and that you have full and speedy recovery.
David