Ball Hook Swivel, Noise Elimination Experiment

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  • Bag-A-Holic
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2011
    • 179

    Ball Hook Swivel, Noise Elimination Experiment

    In addition to a really quite and sturdy platform structure. I was trying to see how to make the ball hook swivels quiter too. One thing I did to reduce one point of the noise, was to place a piece of thick cardboard between the swivel and the board,before securing it. This eliminated the noise from the back of the ball hitting the board. The next noise was coming from the base of the eye hook hitting the base that supports the ball. I cut small pieces of tape and squeezed and taped them in there and it worked, the only thing it didnt stay on there well. Since it seemed to work, and not interfere with the performance, I searched online and found a product call liquid tape, and also a rubber plastic dip coating. I ordered this, and will try to brush this rubber like coating at points of contact and see how it works. It should stay on there better then tape.

    Next was the ball hook bouncing up(especially in fists rolls) and coming back down and hitting the base that supports it. For this I was thinking of filling the top of the swivel with 1/4 ball bearings. The idea would be that, once filled,the bearings would just keep enough pressure to keep the ball hook from moving up and down(creating that clank), and at the same time, allowing the ball hook to continue to still to move about, in its ideal path, without restriction. Not really confident about this part, but I'm gonna try it.

    And then finally, something that I have read previously here on the forum, using a zip tie instead of S-hook on the eye hook. This will eliminate the noise between the S-hook and eye-hook.

    Once all the supplies arrive, I will post results. Stay tuned!
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Bag-A-Holic; 01-13-2013, 03:09 PM.
    -Anthony
  • fedora
    Speed Bag Guru
    • Dec 2012
    • 471

    #2
    I'll be really interested in how the ball bearing experiment turns out.

    fedora

    Comment

    • Speedbag
      Author of the Speed Bag Bible, founder of speedbagcentral.com

      • Feb 2006
      • 7109

      #3
      Originally posted by Bag-A-Holic View Post
      In addition to a really quite and sturdy platform structure. I was trying to see how to make the ball hook swivels quiter too. One thing I did to reduce one point of the noise, was to place a piece of thick cardboard between the swivel and the board,before securing it. This eliminated the noise from the back of the ball hitting the board. The next noise was coming from the base of the eye hook hitting the base that supports the ball. I cut small pieces of tape and squeezed and taped them in there and it worked, the only thing it didnt stay on there well. Since it seemed to work, and not interfere with the performance, I searched online and found a product call liquid tape, and also a rubber plastic dip coating. I ordered this, and will try to brush this rubber like coating at points of contact and see how it works. It should stay on there better then tape.

      Next was the ball hook bouncing up(especially in fists rolls) and coming back down and hitting the base that supports it. For this I was thinking of filling the top of the swivel with 1/4 ball bearings. The idea would be that, once filled,the bearings would just keep enough pressure to keep the ball hook from moving up and down(creating that clank), and at the same time, allowing the ball hook to continue to still to move about, in its ideal path, without restriction. Not really confident about this part, but I'm gonna try it.

      And then finally, something that I have read previously here on the forum, using a zip tie instead of S-hook on the eye hook. This will eliminate the noise between the S-hook and eye-hook.

      Once all the supplies arrive, I will post results. Stay tuned!
      In all honesty I am not familiar with any noticeable noise coming from the connection of the S-hook and eye-hook. IMO the noise of the metal ballhook comes from (1) the eye-shank hitting the metal housing and (2) the ball hitting the board above if an upward angled punch sends it in that direction.

      I have put many everlast metal ball and eyehooks in the everlast plastic housing, and there is virtually no noise and it is the quietest ballhook I have ever hit, the second being the msdeville swivel, which does have a minor clicking sound but is very quiet. In either case I cannot attribute any noise to the connection between the metal S-hook attachment to the eye. This location is the site of some metal flaking that has been suspected to end up in a baggers eye, and has been know to show extreme wear in the more modern everlast models (the older, more hardy swivels of yesteryear rarely show wear in that area..)

      I have added thin strips of duct tape to the exposed eye-shank that comes out of the ball and hits the housing, but the actual noise reduction was minimal.
      Last edited by Speedbag; 01-13-2013, 10:01 PM.
      Speed Bag

      Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
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      The Quest Continues...
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      Comment

      • Bag-A-Holic
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2011
        • 179

        #4
        Thanks for all advice and feedback. I now see its pretty unanimous to put tape around the base of the eyehook to eliminate the sound at that contact point. Eboyzn posted a a video, called taping ritual, where he demonstates this too. I think he did like 8 to ten layers. I will use this idea demonstrated, as well as mentioned by others, but also try a more permanent fix, using a so called liquid nails or rubber dip. Not sure if it will hold, but can always use the tape if not. A hard rubber eye hook might be cool to try, if they made them. I see plastic eye hooks available, but don't think would be strong enough to hold up.
        Ralph interested to see how the plastic washer idea works as well, keep us posted!!!

        Additionally, I do contribute the sound of the S-hook and eye, to my lack of skill in hitting the bag from different areas, and understand that for many, especially the more experienced baggers, this is not existent.

        On that note, I did notice that the bigger the opening between the two(eyehook-and S-hook) the much louder the noise. But I wasn't 100% sure, because as well as the biggest opening being the loudest, in my case it was also thicker and a different metal too, and so wasn't quit sure if it was solely the gap that contributed to the louder noise. The noise at this point is especially true for my plastic everlast, very,very loud at these points, but quite otherwise. Other than using a zip tie, Ebozyn also demonstrated in the same taping ritual video, which I originally misinterpreted as tape to keep the bag on S-hook, realized that the tape around the S-hook also keeps the connection between the S-hook and eye hook snug and eliminates the up and down play. Which Ralph weighed in on this, and confirmed this as well.

        Might this be an idea for some of our fellow swivel makers to consider for there next model? An S hooks, top loop, with only a hole small enough for the eye hook to roll through, with no play? Like Ralph(ventanakaz) in previous post explains how he did it himself. Although both my Devile's are carefully designed to allow the S-hook to slide off and use a zip tie if preferred, eliminating this "play" might be something to consider additionally?

        Ralph, I used the cardboard as a trial run and will be now upgrading to a rubber like gasket as you mentioned. would be better. Also I did realize that a ball that is not circle in the back might be a problem. I will be tryingthe bearings/BBs on a circular model. I also came across plastic light weight BB's that I will experiment with too. Not sure if the weight of the metal bearings would restrict movement at all.

        But based on this bouncing up and down of the ball, would this be also something our fellow swivel makers may want to consider when designing there next models. Making the barrel where the ball goes, just deep enough, so the ball fits snug in there between the two top and bottom openings, and has no room to bounce up and down otherwise? Just some ideas that may or may not have been considered, that some baggers may find benificial for there needs.

        Keep in mind, not all baggers like, or even have need for a super quite swivel, and enjoy the rythme of cadences of the clicky clack otherwise,
        but having a quite swivel for some, may make the difference between being able to speedbag or not. Not on a performance perspective, but solely on the noise level that is tolerable in some house holds.
        Last edited by Bag-A-Holic; 01-14-2013, 10:32 AM.
        -Anthony

        Comment

        • Jake
          Senior Member
          • Mar 2011
          • 113

          #5
          Hey Anthony,

          In my opinion the only noise issue with the metal ball hook swivels is where the Shank of the Eye Bolt strikes the Housing.

          The trick would be to have a plastic Bushing that wraps around the Shank, and could be replaced easy on a regular basis. This would also help slow down the wear on the housing.

          I'm guessing, the other two sounds you're talking about are not because of swivel design. They are probably happening because you are not hitting the bag properly.

          If you happen to be using one of the new Lazer Bags, that would explain this problem. I"m just getting to the point with my new Lazer XS where I can throw fist rolls in, when I'm flying along.

          I still find the Lazer XS challenging. It's been like going through the learning process again. Learn to pound away in the triplet rythm, and start adding more challenging strikes.

          Jake

          Comment

          • Bag-A-Holic
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2011
            • 179

            #6
            Originally posted by Jake View Post
            Hey Anthony,

            In my opinion the only noise issue with the metal ball hook swivels is where the Shank of the Eye Bolt strikes the Housing.

            The trick would be to have a plastic Bushing that wraps around the Shank, and could be replaced easy on a regular basis. This would also help slow down the wear on the housing.

            I'm guessing, the other two sounds you're talking about are not because of swivel design. They are probably happening because you are not hitting the bag properly.

            If you happen to be using one of the new Lazer Bags, that would explain this problem. I"m just getting to the point with my new Lazer XS where I can throw fist rolls in, when I'm flying along.

            I still find the Lazer XS challenging. It's been like going through the learning process again. Learn to pound away in the triplet rythm, and start adding more challenging strikes.

            Jake
            Well where the eye hook hits the housing is one, of the few I've discovered, and may be the most pronounced and consistant. But if you have that part taped up only, and for an example do a fist roll on any bag, not just on the lazer, I can hear this clanking, which is the eye and S hooks. The basic rythme and forward fist rolls are something that I've had an opportunity to practice in traditional speedbagging in the past, and not a technique, I consider myself to be a beginner at, I hope. In that respect, at least for that technique, possibly its not solely skill level, but I'm thinking maybe the size of the bag may be contributing factor too? Or as ralph had mentioned, simply eliminate the gap of the eye hook and S-hook connection. Or maybe something else not considered. To eliminate the possibilty that the sound is actually coming from the base of the eye hook and the housing, you can simply, with your thumb and forefinger, hold the ball and eye hook pinned in the forward up position, then with other hand hit bag, you can clearly here this.

            This may come down to noise "issue" being the relative to each. Everyone may actually here this noise, but may only be an "issue" to some, like me!

            LOL, I know, I'm being very picky, I should of took up reading or crotchet, if I wanted a quite sport!!! But if there's an easy fix solution, why not?
            Last edited by Bag-A-Holic; 01-14-2013, 12:45 PM.
            -Anthony

            Comment

            • Jake
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2011
              • 113

              #7
              I just duct taped the shaft on 2 powermills side by side.

              There is a slight clanking noise at the hooks when using my Lazer XS, but you really have to listen for it. The neighbors wont hear it. The bag striking the board is much louder.

              Hitting my FS 5x8, I don't hear any noise coming from the hook area.

              As far as the ball hitting the board, I don't ever remember having that problem.

              I'm always interested in ways to keep the noise down, and I look forward to hearing about who's trying what.

              Jake

              Comment

              • Bag-A-Holic
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2011
                • 179

                #8
                Originally posted by ventanakaz
                Anthony which swivel are you speaking of or hitting on and can you show some close up picks of the swivel, like one of the eyebolt and S-hook and a really close up of the male part of the swivel if it's a two peace one...ralph
                ***Please keep in mind these swivels are not defective in any way, but I'm just trying to eliminate all noise from them.

                I am referring to my quitest two ball hooks. The Deville and Everlast plastic model. It seems the Deville is quiter then the Everlast with respect to the eye and S hook area, but louder at the Eye hook base and housing unit. I was contimplating on trying use the Deville S and eye hook on the plastic everlast ball and housing unit? Or squeezing the Deville Eye hook closed really small as you did. Still waiting for all my experiment supplies to arrive tomorrow, so before doing surgery, I'm going to try them first. Here a quick video. I would have done demo on board, but people upstairs are home.



                Last edited by Bag-A-Holic; 01-14-2013, 01:30 PM.
                -Anthony

                Comment

                • Bag-A-Holic
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 179

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jake View Post
                  I just duct taped the shaft on 2 powermills side by side.

                  There is a slight clanking noise at the hooks when using my Lazer XS, but you really have to listen for it. The neighbors wont hear it. The bag striking the board is much louder.

                  Hitting my FS 5x8, I don't hear any noise coming from the hook area.

                  As far as the ball hitting the board, I don't ever remember having that problem.

                  I'm always interested in ways to keep the noise down, and I look forward to hearing about who's trying what.

                  Jake
                  Now are you only taping the base of the eye? Or are you taping the S-hook as well. Do you have pics? Ebozyn posted a video showing taping around the S-hook too, all the way up to where it meets the eye loop. This removes the play between the two. Another thing to consider is that many of these swivels parts are bent by hand, I think, and may also factor in variation as well.
                  -Anthony

                  Comment

                  • Jake
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 113

                    #10
                    For some reason I thought we were talking about Powermill Evil Swivels. I'll probably never use any other swivel again.

                    I cut a strip of Duct Tape about 1/4" wide x 6 or 8" long. I wipe the shank of the eye bolt clean. Along with the ball, the hooks, and whatever I can get at.

                    Then I wrap the piece of tape around just the shank (or pole) of the eye bolt.

                    Then I take my spray can of White Lithium Grease, wrap the rag around the top of the bag, push the ball up, two quick shots of grease (using the plastic straw like extention on the can), then a shot to the hook connection. Wipe of excess, and spin the bag.

                    I plan on doing this very often.

                    The Duct Tape really quiets things down a lot, and I don't think it effects performance.

                    I couldn't view the video.

                    Jake

                    Comment

                    • Speedbag
                      Author of the Speed Bag Bible, founder of speedbagcentral.com

                      • Feb 2006
                      • 7109

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jake View Post
                      ......I cut a strip of Duct Tape about 1/4" wide x 6 or 8" long. I wipe the shank of the eye bolt clean. Along with the ball, the hooks, and whatever I can get at.

                      Then I wrap the piece of tape around just the shank (or pole) of the eye bolt.

                      Then I take my spray can of White Lithium Grease, wrap the rag around the top of the bag, push the ball up, two quick shots of grease (using the plastic straw like extention on the can), then a shot to the hook connection. Wipe of excess, and spin the bag.

                      I plan on doing this very often.

                      The Duct Tape really quiets things down a lot, and I don't think it effects performance. Jake
                      I've also wrapped many a swivel eye-shank with duct tape to (1) quiet down the sound (2) reduce chance of tiny metal chips disloging from the metal housing when the softer duct tape hit it.

                      and I also found very little, if any effect on actual performance.
                      Speed Bag

                      Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
                      *attendee: Every SB gathering so far!
                      The Quest Continues...
                      Hoping for another Gathering...


                      sigpic

                      The Art of the Bag

                      Comment

                      • Bag-A-Holic
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2011
                        • 179

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jake View Post
                        For some reason I thought we were talking about Powermill Evil Swivels. I'll probably never use any other swivel again.

                        I cut a strip of Duct Tape about 1/4" wide x 6 or 8" long. I wipe the shank of the eye bolt clean. Along with the ball, the hooks, and whatever I can get at.

                        Then I wrap the piece of tape around just the shank (or pole) of the eye bolt.

                        Then I take my spray can of White Lithium Grease, wrap the rag around the top of the bag, push the ball up, two quick shots of grease (using the plastic straw like extention on the can), then a shot to the hook connection. Wipe of excess, and spin the bag.

                        I plan on doing this very often.

                        The Duct Tape really quiets things down a lot, and I don't think it effects performance.

                        I couldn't view the video.

                        Jake
                        I agree, I also have a Power Mill, and it performs well, but its actually the loudest of the three types of ball hook swivels I have. The Deville performs just as well, and is quiter. I'm just trying to modify it, to get rid of all the noise, if thats even possible. My experiment supplies didn't arrive today, coming tomorrow. What i did just try last night on one of my Deville's is, I added spot weld in the eye-hook, to decrease the size of the hole that supoorts the S-hook. Others did that with tape, and it worked, or an other member actualy cut and bent the S-hook so it would have a smaller hole. These both achieve the same concept, of restricting the space that the eye and S-hook connections. Im goint to try to add BB's/ ball bearing in the top as well, to try and restict the ball from floating.
                        Attached Files
                        -Anthony

                        Comment

                        • Jake
                          Senior Member
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 113

                          #13
                          Allen, I agree the Duct Tape serves two purposes. I am using it not only for sound, but to slow down wear.

                          The Lazer bag will deliver a severe beating to any swivel. I can already see the wear on the housing, and the eyebolt shank has a new small groove around it.

                          I'll have to post a picture of my Everlast ball hook from the 70's one of these days. That shows what kind of wear happens over time.

                          Allen you probably know better than anyone, eventually the eye of the eyebolt starts whacking the housing. Then it starts slipping sideways, and it's time for a new swivel. Or of course you can just hit it that way for the next 20 years or so, like I did. It will still work, just not as well.

                          Jake
                          Last edited by Jake; 01-15-2013, 12:52 PM.

                          Comment

                          • jumpcannon
                            Creator of the Powermill Evil Swivel

                            • Jul 2010
                            • 606

                            #14
                            I've hit the same swivel for 2 years....the eye will "form" to the face of the swivel & create a flat on the eye....once it forms it wont groove anymore.
                            evilswivel@yahoo.com

                            Comment

                            • Bag-A-Holic
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2011
                              • 179

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ventanakaz
                              because i work at getting rid of that play in the eyebolt and S-hook conection but not for noise but for performance of the swivel, to get rid of any floating, you can get rid of some if not most of that floating ;-)...ralph
                              Yeah, I was going for the noise... I didnt know the performance would get better, that's until I tried it. Much quiter and better control. Also, I got impatient waiting for the ball bearings, (coming tomorrow), so to get rid of the space in the ball barrel, I oiled back of ball, put a metal washer(size of hole) on it, then filled the remaining space with cardboard, as not to put to much weight on the ball. Not perfect, but much quiter. Used scotch tape around eye.(only tape I had) Will apply the liquid tape, and use bearings tomorrow to see if any better.

                              Ralph can you post a pic of your eye/S-hook. Want to see how it looks. Im afraid to start bending it and not get it straight/balanced again.



                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Bag-A-Holic; 01-15-2013, 05:09 PM.
                              -Anthony

                              Comment

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