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-   -   Explanation of page 152 of Speed Bag Bible (http://www.speedbagforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1111)

Roc Stone 06-03-2008 12:03 AM

Explanation of page 152 of Speed Bag Bible
 
Hi Guy's.

Ok, here's the situation. I'm trying to convince my gym buddies that the B/S swivel is the way to go. I've shown it to them and given them a sample of one (the Aussie equivilent to the Watkins) and they do agree that they are a good swivel. :)

Ok, here's the delamer. The owner is affraid that his supply of new speed bags, imported from U.S/Everlast, may just start to go walk about (get stolen). Most other swivels require a tool of some description to install and remove the bag, but as we know(and Love), you just hook and unhook the bags with the B/H swivels. :( :)

Cable ties were the first thing that came to mind, which would do the job adequately enough, as far as theft prevention. But I tend to think that with the cable tie yolk up tight around the bag loop and the hook this would ultimately effect a good % of any true rebound. To be honest I have not tried it yet (or given it the #*^ACID TEST**??##); this may work for the best part of it but I wouldn't like my chances trying to pull off a R(TES) ' L(SSP) ' R-L(RDP) '' R(FSP) '' L(RSP) '' L-L/R-R(O-D 4way) ' 4(F-Roll) to consistantly, if at all. :rolleyes:

So I thought I'd put it to the 'Posse' (so to speak). Any of you Bloke got any thoughts on this? I'll take any advice on either matter; a) Securing the bag to the B/H swivel so's its can't be stolen. b) Page 152, line 3 of 'SBB'. :cool:

Thanks
Roc

P.S; Alan, Skunk, any chance of you makin a walkthrough video of page 152, line 3, please? I know I'd be greatly oblige as I hope many others would be as well. I would just like to see it in motion from a couple of different angles, but only if it's no trouble. CHEERS :p

Speedbag 06-03-2008 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roc Stone (Post 8215)
Hi Guy's.

Ok, here's the situation. I'm trying to convince my gym buddies that the B/S swivel is the way to go. I've shown it to them and given them a sample of one (the Aussie equivilent to the Watkins) and they do agree that they are a good swivel. :)

Ok, here's the delamer. The owner is affraid that his supply of new speed bags, imported from U.S/Everlast, may just start to go walk about (get stolen). Most other swivels require a tool of some description to install and remove the bag, but as we know(and Love), you just hook and unhook the bags with the B/H swivels. :( :)

Cable ties were the first thing that came to mind, which would do the job adequately enough, as far as theft prevention. But I tend to think that with the cable tie yolk up tight around the bag loop and the hook this would ultimately effect a good % of any true rebound. To be honest I have not tried it yet (or given it the #*^ACID TEST**??##); .....
So I thought I'd put it to the 'Posse' (so to speak). Any of you Bloke got any thoughts on this? I'll take any advice on either matter; a) Securing the bag to the B/H swivel so's its can't be stolen.

Thanks
Roc

I don't know that cable ties would interfer with the bag's rebound if you wrap it to the hook but don't interfer with the ball. I tape my bags to the hook all the time so they don't fly off on upward mishits, and the action of the rebounds isn't changed. I'm not sure that would deter a serious thief. The best fix to stop a thief is take the bags down after use. They can't steal what isn't there. But I know that is hard to do in a busy public gym area.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Roc Stone (Post 8215)
... my chances trying to pull off a R(D-TES) ' L(SSP) ' R-L(RDP) '' R(FSP) '' L(RSP) '' L-L/R-R(O-D 4way) ' 4(F-Roll) to consistantly, if at all. :rolleyes:

P.S; Alan, Skunk, any chance of you makin a walkthrough video of page 152, line 3, please? I know I'd be greatly oblige as I hope many others would be as well. I would just like to see it in motion from a couple of different angles, but only if it's no trouble. CHEERS :p

Well I forgot about that :o You did ask for a demo some time ago.

IF you can do most everything up to page 152, then this combo should be pretty easy, because every line just repeats things I already had you do earlier.

The opening FRoll ' ' ' S-TES ' ' S-TES should be easy. the last fist of a F-Roll is a FCP. simply do FCP ' ' ' S-TES ' ' S-TES.

The S-TES ' ' STES ' 'D-TES you did on page 93, exercise 16 and page 139 exercise 9 (bottom of page - "Triple Triple")

The D-TES ' SSP ' RDP Combo: this was done with a right fist lead on page 150, exercise 7 (end) and again on page 151, exercise 9. ( middle). The main difference on line 3 of page 152 is the combo leads with the left fist, so the left fist goes to the SSP, not the right. ( IF you had done the other two exercises on page 150 & 151 with the other fist leading, you would have already done this combo several times just as it is written..)

The end split fist RDP ' ' FSP ' ' RSP is simply the lead fist of a RDP coming to the front for a FSP. This should be easy if you can do exercise 9 & 10 on page 135, which is splitting the fists after a R-Roll. The last two punches of a R-Roll are a RDP. It is the same movement.

The RSP ' ' O-D4way you first did on page 72 #8, and a bunch of times after that in later chapters.

What part are you having a problem with? Just do two or three techniques of it at a time to feel the flow. But you have already done every one of these combo's. There is nothing NEW on page 152 - your just using parts from the many exercises you have already done, which is why I called it "putting it all together", instead of "here are a few things you still haven't done...."

(...and there are a bunch of things that are not in the book.)

But I'll try to punch it up on video for you to see and hear. I'm just thrilled someone really got that far into the book :eek: :p

Roc Stone 06-04-2008 02:24 AM

"Hmmm!". Maybe I should have read the book instead of referrencing it. You got me there.:p

I can hear your mind ticking over from here Alan. "Ahhh. I thought so".:rolleyes:

:o:o:o

So! Moving back to topic. I did give this whole routine away for a spell, but looking to give it another crack now. I must say that whislt it contains everything in the book it is still not easy. It was rare that I completed it with any sort of fluidity, mostly staggered. Also found that hooking sequence entertaining, but challenging.

About P 152 line 3. It is the single rebound sequence that causes all the slip ups. Ok, so my averages on completing that little sequence has increased, and I have picked up on angling the last fist of the 1st (TES) so's to create a set up for the single rebound L(SSP). In fact that section alone has given me a fantastic foundation for a number of other variations on top of that, mainly been working on following it with R(SDP), L(SDP) and alternate. Anyway, back to topic. Ok, so by the time I'm swingin the (RDP) that bag is moving super fast, and comin through with the (RDP) the bags going like lightning. When I reach the R(FSP) '' L(RSP) the bag is going so fast, most of the time I'm just skimming the bag, and I'd imagine you'd know how that can be.:);):D Of course I've tried slowing the whole motion down bit by bit, but found a decrease in my success rate, frustrating me even further. In my opinion to get good fist contact during this sequence the bag must be struck with a reasonable amount of power. Therefore it must be done at pace.:cool::)

Alan, I have found P 152 to be the perfect bench mark for me, at this point, to set my standards to and I'd like to thank you for that, my speed bag savant
:) Yes you caught me out before about only referrencing your book and not reading it, but however, by doing it in a reverse type manner it has given me (in my opinion) a greater understanding of where the true gifts in your book lay. Yeah sure, anyone can be taught all punching and striking combos, but what does it for me is the way you've developed the intricacies of Echo beats, Syncopated rythms and one that I'm having a bit of fun with right now Reverse or Mirrored combinations.;)

Speedbag 06-04-2008 08:59 AM

I need to hack this one up a bit....


Quote:

Originally Posted by Roc Stone (Post 8222)
"Hmmm!". Maybe I should have read the book instead of referrencing it. You got me there.:p

I can hear your mind ticking over from here Alan. "Ahhh. I thought so".:rolleyes:

:o:o:o

HA!. I once got a call from a guy who said there was an error in a few of my exercises. He told me there were several written exercises that had the wrong fist sequences over the top of the technique abbreviations in the SIDE punching chapter. I was amazed anyone had actually read that far and understood it, so I got the book and he was right, the fist orders were wrong. That was how I first met John Baca. That made me go back and do every single exercise in the book, both air punching and on the bag, and cause my fist major re-write. I had no one to proof read those areas who understood it at the time, and had missed a few fist orders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roc Stone (Post 8222)
About P 152 line 3. It is the single rebound sequence that causes all the slip ups. Ok, so my averages on completing that little sequence has increased, and I have picked up on angling the last fist of the 1st (TES) so's to create a set up for the single rebound L(SSP).

Perhaps you're trying to hard. There is no "angling of the last fist of the DTES" needed. If there is a secret, it is getting the lead fist of the DTES in position for the SSP. The second fist connects after the elbow in a FCP position, and (secret #2), goes behind to lead the RDP. Cut this movement down to study the right fist movement: It is a Downward Double ES D-DES) to Reverse Single Punch (RSP)

(D-DES) ' ' (RSP)

that is what the Right Fist Does in this combo.

To get the left fist movement, do a few Left Side Single Punches (SSP) to a right leading (RDP) with one rebound inbetween.

Left-SSP ' ' ' SSP ' ' ' SSP ' R-L-RDP

To practice the fist movements in this whole combo, change the DTES to a Front Double Punch (FDP).
(the DTES is nothing more than a FDP with an Elbow in the Middle..)

FDP ' SSP ' RDP.

the lead fist of the FDP goes to the side. The second fist goes through to the back to lead the RDP. That is ALL the fists do. (Exercise 3A, Page 146 - with the same fist order as pg. 152, #3)

Change the DTES to an OTES to make it a bit easier if you need to. But the point is, the last fist of the DTES does not have to be angled any special way to make this work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roc Stone (Post 8222)
Ok, so by the time I'm swingin the (RDP) that bag is moving super fast, and comin through with the (RDP) the bags going like lightning. When I reach the R(FSP) '' L(RSP) the bag is going so fast, most of the time I'm just skimming the bag, and I'd imagine you'd know how that can be.:);):D Of course I've tried slowing the whole motion down bit by bit, but found a decrease in my success rate. frustrating me even further. In my opinion to get good fist contact during this sequence the bag must be struck with a reasonable amount of power. Therefore it must be done at pace.:cool::)

Actually I would disagree. Increasing your speed in the combination may be creating part of your problem with it. Most likely because of the STES sequence. You will have better success if you use the same force on all punches. The most difficult part of this combo is the DTES-SSP-RDP, and that is because it all happens with only one rebound inbetween. That takes a bit faster hand speed, but don't let your hand speed add more power to the bag contact. At this level of combinations you will learn to hit with a "light hand", going fast and soft to not add speed, which will change the timing. The truth is, you may speed up and slow down a bit within these combinations, but you should strive to do them at the same pace. That combo can be done very slowly just as easily as fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roc Stone (Post 8222)
but what does it for me is the way you've developed the intricacies of Echo beats, Syncopated rythms and one that I'm having a bit of fun with right now Reverse or Mirrored combinations.;)

I don't know that I "developed" the echo beats and syncopated rhythms intricacies. I believe the bag revealed them to me. One has only to look to find much more in the speed bag than first meets the eye. But you're a man after my own heart if doing the echo beats does it for you. I do know exactly how you feel on that one.... :D

Roc Stone 06-04-2008 10:21 PM

I was amazed anyone had actually read that far and understood it, so I got the book and he was right, the fist orders were wrong. That was how I first met John Baca.

He's been around the block a few times. Looks like he knows what he's doing. He didn't get a CMH for nothing. Thank you for sharing that footage.

I don't know if its just me or what, but I'd love to see more video of the opposite sex on the speed bag. Erin (Mrs Skunk) does a good job, but I refered back to Speed Bag Central and notice there appear to several ladies in the special peoples column who appear very capable. I have had discussion with Lori from Prime Fighter on more than one occasion, would dig seeing her in action, and the Kam family look awsome too, along with Dr Perrone. In fact every one of those listed in the special peoples column I'm sure would be awe inspiring to watch on the speed bag.

This brings me to another point. Does anyone know what happened to that 1939 tribute footage of that speed bag Queen of days gone by? Now she was someone to look at.

Dutchman 06-04-2008 11:19 PM

The short from Paramount's "Unusual Occupations" and "Popular Science" series was put on YouTube by it's current owner, Shields Pictures. It was a limited engagement, to see what kind of interest these fims generated. When the agreement expired they withdrew the various shorts that they had posted. It is interesting to note that the featurette of punching bag champion Doris DeGreen had the most views of all of the shorts.
Shields Pictures supplies these series of films along with others to the trade, and for research purposes. They have been featured in the past on American Movie Classics as fillers between films, just as they were originally intended.
Alan has spoken to them in the past, in fact he was instrumental in getting them to post the Doris DeGreen short on YouTube. He would have a better insight as what they might do in the future.

Speedbag 06-05-2008 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roc Stone (Post 8236)
I was amazed anyone had actually read that far and understood it, so I got the book and he was right, the fist orders were wrong. That was how I first met John Baca.

He's been around the block a few times. Looks like he knows what he's doing. Thank you for sharing that footage.

I don't know if its just me or what, but I'd love to see more video of the opposite sex on the speed bag. Erin (Mrs Skunk) does a good job, but I refered back to Speed Bag Central and notice there appear to several ladies in the special peoples column who appear very capable. I have had discussion with Lori from Prime Fighter on more than one occasion, would dig seeing her in action, and the Kam family look awsome too, along with Dr Perrone. In fact every one of those listed in the special peoples column I'm sure would be awe inspiring to watch on the speed bag.

This brings me to another point. Does anyone know what happened to that 1939 tribute footage of that speed bag Queen of days gone by? Now she was someone to look at.

I don't know why shields pictures took the footage of Doris DeGreen off youtube. But K4moore (scroll down to bottom) on this forum is her Grandson.

and scroll down this link for the original LIFE Magazine article about her

John Baca has given me permission to post speed bag footage of him on my youtube site. I have a more of him hitting, so I should edit it up and post it. I should probably get clearance from the Congressional Medal of Honor Society, but a letter from him would suffice.

Along with Erin, who is becoming awesome on the bag, there is some pretty good footage of female speed baggers on youtube. Dr. Lisa Perrone is incredible on the bag, (like Baca) but has not yet posted footage that I know of on youtube. (hint, hint....) She is also a member of this forum. ;)

Roc Stone 06-05-2008 04:39 AM

SWELL.Thank you very much guys:D. That is priceless footage. I got a nice little kick when I heard that Kid Brunnel was an Aussie:cool:.

Interesting to see that R(OES) ' L(SSP) done sideways against a wall, it appears slightly easier that way (to learn perhaps). You wouldn't even need to use a swivel, just wack an eye bolt in the wall. In fact the eye bolt and string method appears to have been quite successful in its day, and easy enough to rig, also providing a true rebound. I know what I'll be doing next.:p

Big shout out to K4moore too :). My name is Adam, but you can call me Roc :p. Just love your grandmothers work, she looks like one cool lady ;).

Anyway Alan, what about your mentor, Roy Schroeder. He looks like a crafty sort of a chap. Is he still about? I'm thinkin of checkin out some of his books.

Speedbag 06-05-2008 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roc Stone (Post 8240)
..Anyway Alan, what about your mentor, Roy Schroeder. He looks like a crafty sort of a chap. Is he still about? I'm thinkin of checkin out some of his books.

Last letter I got from him about 8 years ago was from south florida, where he was loading up his boat to sail out again somewhere. He retired from teaching and sails around the world, with a home port in the bahamas. He was a man of many talents, and would often spend his summers doing salvage scuba work in and around florida with some of his friends. He and I went to Heber Spring ARK several times scuba diving while he was teaching his kids. That was back in the 1970's.

I'd love to see him again, and worry about him sometimes during heavy hurricane season, but I gather he is smart enough to avoid the big winds.

Dutchman 06-05-2008 12:50 PM

I think Shields was testing to see if the YOuTube exposure would lead to more commercial rentals of the series.


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