Need ideas for custom platform drum

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  • kenk
    Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 48

    #16
    Antny72...the thick drum that Floyd is using looks like it might be made of pine or fir...it looks like it was finished in high gloss clear oil polyurethane, because it has a "burnt umber" color look. Also, there are some dark spots on the edge that look like they may be knots (common in pine/fir). Can't tell if it is end grain butcher block style...
    Ant...since you brought up the idea of using end grain for a platform you gave me an idea! I just came from a high end Navy recreation facility that serves about 10,000 people on base. It has three indoor full size basketball courts, indoor swimming, weight lifting, and many treadmills and ellipticals. My point, money is no object when it comes to military fitness. This place has a floor throughout that I've never seen before. It is made of thousands of end-grain pieces of wood covered in a thick clear coating. The wood appears to be pine or fir, not maple. It is glued directly onto concrete floor. It holds up extremely well and does not show any dents.
    I looked up the compressive strength of pine and the compressive strength is about 15 times higher on the edge grain (butcher block style) as opposed to parallel to grain. I think the bag rebound might be very high on an edge grain platform, and the wood is much cheaper and lighter too. So I think I might fabricate an edge grain pine/fir platform. I would top it off with a piece of 3/4 plywood to prevent breakage...Probably make it about 5" thick by 28" diameter...I would use high quality premeium 2x6 construction studs.

    Comment

    • Bag-A-Holic
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2011
      • 179

      #17
      Originally posted by ventanakaz
      i agree with zaza. you guys are over thinking it, the drum only needs to be 2" or 3" hell i've hit on the stock drums and they were only 3/4"...where my vibration is coming from on my setup and other setups is the bracing (framing of the platform) and the wall that it's mounted to, if you have a solid wall and your framing of your platform is solid them you'll have minimal to no vibration. look at dee and raul's platforms that they make, the framing is made in an octagon and i don't have to hit on it to know it's solid, it just has to be mounted to a solid wall ;-)...ralph
      Your probably right on the overthinking part, but just in my own defense, I under thought my last purchase with a 30" drum at 1 3/4 inch thick drum and it was a total flop, and shook and vibrated like crazy, shook more than the stock 24" everlast pressboard I had.

      I kinda feel 3 inches might do the trick at 24 inch diameter, but may I ask what would an additional 2 -3 inches do? Would it have any possible negative effects besides the cost?

      Also as far as a sturdywall and support that I also agree with that too, but I think when you go to an adjustable that support gets compromised and I'm thinking the additional weight of thick 4-6 inch drum will counter act and compensate that? w/o putting stuff on top.

      Now in the mayweather photos/video They have a solid cinderblock wall, with thick metal solitary supports, and they still went with a larger drum. Now it could be just for show but I was thinking maybe it would have worked just as well with a 1 inch drum,(for a while) but the impact of hitting the bag would travel through the drum/ braces and eventually loosen the supports in the wall and cause shaking. With the larger drum the impact may stay at the drum surface and not travel through it. I'm not a physicist or anything, but this is what my thoughts were on it. Hoping that talking back and forth and relating stories can help kinda put this in a better understanding and prospective on this issue.

      As far as Dee and Raul's platform, I have notice it and I thought I read they custom made that out of cement or such? Which would make sense that it would be quiter and weigh alot more. Also the videos Iv'e seen only show the bottom of the platform and I couldn't see how or what the actual bracing was used in the set up. I will try to find out.

      When people put thing on top of the platform, I was assuming that it was about 50 lbs, to reduce the vibration? Thats what I had on my old everlast, 2- 25lb sand bags) So it would make sense that if you didnt want to use props on top, you would need a board that weighed at least that at minimum. the 4 inch thick Maple is 53 pounds.

      I also started a thread, to put a glass of water on top of platform and video it. To show how much or little the board vibrates. I think the straight videos dont really show it that well. I think from this, we may be able to compare and contast different set ups vibration factor better.

      I think, it was just an idea?
      -Anthony

      Comment

      • Bag-A-Holic
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2011
        • 179

        #18
        Originally posted by kenk View Post
        Antny72...the thick drum that Floyd is using looks like it might be made of pine or fir...it looks like it was finished in high gloss clear oil polyurethane, because it has a "burnt umber" color look. Also, there are some dark spots on the edge that look like they may be knots (common in pine/fir). Can't tell if it is end grain butcher block style...
        Ant...since you brought up the idea of using end grain for a platform you gave me an idea! I just came from a high end Navy recreation facility that serves about 10,000 people on base. It has three indoor full size basketball courts, indoor swimming, weight lifting, and many treadmills and ellipticals. My point, money is no object when it comes to military fitness. This place has a floor throughout that I've never seen before. It is made of thousands of end-grain pieces of wood covered in a thick clear coating. The wood appears to be pine or fir, not maple. It is glued directly onto concrete floor. It holds up extremely well and does not show any dents.
        I looked up the compressive strength of pine and the compressive strength is about 15 times higher on the edge grain (butcher block style) as opposed to parallel to grain. I think the bag rebound might be very high on an edge grain platform, and the wood is much cheaper and lighter too. So I think I might fabricate an edge grain pine/fir platform. I would top it off with a piece of 3/4 plywood to prevent breakage...Probably make it about 5" thick by 28" diameter...I would use high quality premeium 2x6 construction studs.
        Kenk Ok now let me ask your opinion about the issue of the wood splitting, when drilling the holes to put the swivel, and also the board itself to the platform? What factors are involved here and how to get around them or minimize the risks? 3/4 plywood? now is this in place of the 3/8 metal reinforcement? Did you factor in an addition 1/8 inch for using plywood instead? Now when you mention 2x6 construction studs, are you referring to them as what you used on the wall to attach to beams, which you then attached the platform to that? Also can you please address your comment I asked about in one of the previos posts in this thread where you mention larger diameter means less rebound. If you scroll to my post at 9:59 pm yesterday you can see it. What do you think about the water test?
        -Anthony

        Comment

        • AtTheCross
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2012
          • 100

          #19
          Originally posted by Antny72 View Post
          Ok I finally found the video clip showing the what appears to be Butcher Block platforms. I took a snap shot too. These look solid but cant really tell waht they are made of, because of how dark they are. or even the thickness, I'm gauging around 5-6 inches? Any ideas?

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkTUu1YdYMQ
          for sure that is not end grain, you can tell it's not because of the knot in the wood.

          the only thing I see as not being ideal is splitting, when you put a screw into end grain wood you're spreading the grain. it's like splitting logs, you split them from the end so that it 'splinters'

          i'm just saying it's not 'ideal' not saying that it will split. I would for sure pre-drill the holes or better yet, over drill them and put threaded inserts so you can screw into threaded metal inserts instead of wood
          1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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          Comment

          • Bag-A-Holic
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2011
            • 179

            #20
            Originally posted by AtTheCross View Post
            for sure that is not end grain, you can tell it's not because of the knot in the wood.

            the only thing I see as not being ideal is splitting, when you put a screw into end grain wood you're spreading the grain. it's like splitting logs, you split them from the end so that it 'splinters'

            i'm just saying it's not 'ideal' not saying that it will split. I would for sure pre-drill the holes or better yet, over drill them and put threaded inserts so you can screw into threaded metal inserts instead of wood
            We'll the good news is that there would be no screwing into at all. It would just 8 total holes and all the way through the Butcher Block. 4 holes on the uter perimeter with a increased diameter hole at the bottom of the Butcher Block to able to recess the head of the support bolt that would hold it to the platform frame. Then there would be an aditional 4 holes for the swivel near center, based on the fact that now the platform I'm looking into does not have any obstructions over the center, i would not need to screw into it or put threaded fastners into it either to hold the swivel bolts. But if I was there were a few ideas that were mentioned here on the forum to do that. Pics Below 1) A t-nut(not much thread to hold onto the bolt but looks like it holds tight and wont slip., 2) A sex bolt, longer threads to grab but doesnt look like it has as much grip as a t-nut(maybe add glue to increase the bond inside the drum to prevent slipping), or 3) a carriage bolt, with a recessed hole at top of board, then the the carriage has a sqaure piece that would grab and not turn and keep it secure, that would go in through the top, and you would use a wing nut at bottom of board where swivel is, to fasten.

            Back to the butcher Block, I do have a concern, based on the additional weight of the block ~100lbs. If its the 24x24x6 (plus another 40 lbs for a possible steel reinforcement plate that would be glued to the top of the Butcher Block, to 1) prevent the Pieces in the block from separating, and also help prevent any vibration from going past that point, and as a KenK has mentioned, creating a center of precussion, AKA Sweet Spot all over the board. So the question now would be how big (wide) should the bolts and also how wide should the washers be, to support this Butcher Block to the platform frame? Would maybe using the same width bolts as the stock platform comes with and maybe just increasing the diameter of the washers be good enough? It would give a larger lip to support more of the weight?
            Not really sure about this part, or any of this at all to be honest.
            Hoping to get as much ideas and feedback as possible.

            Also I was thinking, would maybe a metal strap(Like pic below,but something wider and meatier) around the whole block be an idea. Would that hold the block together better? Nothing that would screw into or glue to the block but something that can be kinda torque tighter and tighter, kind like a big metal clamp around it.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Bag-A-Holic; 01-01-2013, 09:09 AM.
            -Anthony

            Comment

            • kenk
              Member
              • Dec 2012
              • 48

              #21
              Valor ca-53 platform photos

              antny72...here are some shots of my ca-53 platform installation....with rubber vibration mounts to keep sound from getting to drywall....also drum is attrached to platform with 8 screws around perimeter of drum...not near center like most drums...
              Attached Files

              Comment

              • Bag-A-Holic
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2011
                • 179

                #22
                So the lastest thought about this Butcher Block Endgrain paltform idea is thinking of some other application that may have an endgrain cut to compare. I though of maybe an exterior door? This would kinda reassure that 1) holes can be drilled into it(ie. the doorknob), And pressure applied to that area wthout falling apart. Also, 2) the heavy metal knockers on the exterior door would show that the endgrain can take a pounding, also from just knockiing or kicking the door too. BUT, I was unable to find any solid exterior doors made of endgrain. This concerns me because there must be a reason they are not made. Surely its not because of its looks,because the looks of the endgrain design it what stands out in most of its applications, I gather so far.

                Has anyone seen a solid wood door made of endgrain? Not to buy the door, but just as a reassurance of the durability of the endgrain cut for the Butcher Block, as a rebound board for speedbag platform idea.
                -Anthony

                Comment

                • Bag-A-Holic
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 179

                  #23
                  Ok some more thoughts!!!! I'm not quite sure, reducing vibration, is all about the bracing and supports on the wall. The reason why is this, if you just pound directly on the wall with your hand, its going vibrate and shake. Unless maybe its cinderblocks! So then it wouldn't matter how secure you are to the wall because if enough energy or force is applied and gets to the wall, its gonna still shake. I think?

                  Heres another analogy, you take a car and leave it in neutral, (unsecure), now you have a kid try to push or move it, it doesnt matter if it was secure or not becuase not enough force was applied to make it even move.(this is an extreme example) Now on the flip side someone with much more power can get the car to move and shake.

                  So I think the trick is to make sure whatever, meaning the drum, between the Brace on the wall and the speed bag, should in theory have enough resistance to the force applied, that it will have no effect on the bracing. Which will also insure if it is already secure, won't loosen up over time either. This is what in theory I think the sandbags and other item on top of the smaller boards do, they work as dampers, to prevent it going further to the bracing/walls.

                  So it would be good to know how much weight pressure a speedbag delivers to the drum. I guess a range, from soft to hard hitters. Then the appropriate weigh drum that counters that can be selected, or what the appropriate weight to put on top should be.

                  Or maybe like KenK did with the rubber coasters on the wall, maybe a shock absorber can be put between a regular size drum and the bracing too?

                  But in theory, I think having to put stuff on top or the shock absorbers to reduce the vibration, means the energy/force of the speedbag is being able to go through the drum/surface, and not back into a rebound, where I think we may want it.

                  Ok back to thinking more about this!
                  Last edited by Bag-A-Holic; 01-01-2013, 05:25 PM.
                  -Anthony

                  Comment

                  • sendmorecops
                    Speed Bag Trainee
                    • May 2012
                    • 24

                    #24
                    Kenk- where did you find those rubber spacers at? I had a similar idea using the soft rubber spacers you place in-between skateboard trucks. I didn't end up doing it but if those work well on your platform I might add some.

                    Comment

                    • kenk
                      Member
                      • Dec 2012
                      • 48

                      #25
                      The rubber cups (spacers) are from ACE hardware #5181771. They are 1 3/4" diameter about 3/8" thick. I drilled a hole in the center to mount them...used a bolt with washer and locknut, and just tightened down enough to set the lockwasher....I mounted two 2x6x 1 1/2" thick pin studs to three wall studs with 4 1/2" lag bolts...instead of hard mounting the platform to the boards (as per instructions) I inserted rubber disks...(also, I used 3/8" dia machine screws to mount to boards using "T" nuts to secure...

                      I'm still a believer that you'll get much better rebound off a platform that is designed with end-grain butcher block style, compared to typical lengthwise laminated platforms. But, I think you can make it inexpensively with pine/fir...15 times the compressive strength on end grain vs parallel to grain...this is true for most woods. High compressive strength means better rebound. I just checked this with a piece of pine/fir 2x4 stud. Tap on the end grain and you hear a high pitched ping...tap on the side and its a dull thud. I plan on making a low cost, thick 4"-5" thick drum form end grain pine/fir. I would bond it to a 3/4" piece of high quality maple plywood to prevent cracking of the end grain. I think I can do it for under $50-$60 bucks. It might fail....but I think it be it has a great chance of success...hope to do this in the next week or two...
                      Also, I would insert a wood screw into each end grain piece during assembly, sideways, to improve strength....
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by kenk; 01-01-2013, 06:10 PM.

                      Comment

                      • doss darwin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2012
                        • 122

                        #26
                        recess

                        "But the idea of simply recessing a swivel up into the board would also shorten the rebound arc and probably add speed. Anyone with a really thick board and the tools to counter sink the center swivel area might give this a try. (on a spare board)." from a post by AK april 2007--could not find any follow up as yet--there was quite a bit of discussion on the how to do--dd
                        __________________
                        the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limitations

                        Comment

                        • Speedbag
                          Author of the Speed Bag Bible, founder of speedbagcentral.com

                          • Feb 2006
                          • 7109

                          #27
                          Originally posted by doss darwin View Post
                          "But the idea of simply recessing a swivel up into the board would also shorten the rebound arc and probably add speed. Anyone with a really thick board and the tools to counter sink the center swivel area might give this a try. (on a spare board)." from a post by AK april 2007--could not find any follow up as yet--there was quite a bit of discussion on the how to do--dd
                          __________________
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                          Originally posted by ventanakaz
                          ...but...but...but...that's cheating i say. LoL ;-)...ralph
                          Don't tell Dee and Raul that...
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                          • reggabdeeps
                            Member
                            • Jun 2011
                            • 58

                            #28
                            i was looking to do something similiar with a Boos butcher block that i inherited when i purchesed my house. i am currently using it as a gun cleaning table and id hate to part with it but am looking to do a nice platform with low vibration and at a low cost.

                            Comment

                            • AugustChief
                              Member
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 88

                              #29
                              Any progress or updates on this custom build? I'm planning on vetting some designs through master construction personnel.

                              Definitely going need a Swanson Speed square, Pythagorean theorem, and Algebra.

                              Comment

                              • Bag-A-Holic
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2011
                                • 179

                                #30
                                Originally posted by AugustChief View Post
                                Any progress or updates on this custom build? I'm planning on vetting some designs through master construction personnel.

                                Definitely going need a Swanson Speed square, Pythagorean theorem, and Algebra.
                                Just recieved email below, from the company I ordered my Primefighter 400 platform from. This was originally going to be used to mount a custom 24x24x6 Endgrain Boos Butcher Block to. Custom being, I was going to secure a 1/4 steel plate to top of the butcher block to reinforce the Endgrain, and also hopefully create a "sweet spot" AKA center of precussion, all over the board. This would of been a total of 135 lbs, 95lbs for butcher Block and 40lbs for the steel plate. I think the problem is, that I might, but not necessarily, need a counter weight of ~100lbs too, bringing the total bearing weight to 235lbs.

                                The Butcher Block order became non refundable after 24 hrs.

                                Hmmm it is a Endgrain Butcher Block, so it has a bunch of boxes on it, maybe a custom chess or checker board then!

                                "Anthony,

                                Thank you for your payment but we cannot guarantee that much weight when we haven't tested it ourselves. All the modifications would also void any warranty. We don't feel that this is in our best interest and will be refunding your payments. Sorry for the inconvenience."
                                Last edited by Bag-A-Holic; 01-07-2013, 12:15 PM.
                                -Anthony

                                Comment

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