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Old 10-07-2006, 01:16 PM
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Alan on Advanced Combinations

I moved this from another thread, for It's a specific question by ChrisM, but did not want to hijack the "how fast can you go thread" with another topic.

this will be a much longer subject to discuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris M View Post
.. I'm still working on my advanced techniques, particularly the six count thing, I forget what you call it. I can only get the double punch followed by the side punch about half the time and I'm using a 10x12 bag to learn this technique. I pay particular attention to hitting with my fists in the right order, RCP, LCP, RSP with one bounce in between each hit. I'm not too good on the abbreviations you use, so forgive me.

When you do it, it looks so easy, but you sure have to be fast to do it. Maybe I'm starting to see the disadvantage of using the swivel that I'm using, which is this one: http://store.titleboxing.com/dps-ez.html. If you remember, I use this swivel for my indoors unit and the metal ball & hook swivel for outdoors to keep noise down. I guess I could try it outdoors, but I'm not too keen on exercising outdoors when it's 50 degrees outside.

Any hints on this technique? I can't get past the three count, let alone the six count that you do on the DVD. I know practice makes perfect and I never thought I'd be able to easily work the inner, outer, and downward elbows easily into my routine, but it just clicked one day and everything was a piece of cake and it's been that way ever since.

Maybe I need to watch the DVD again?
AHA! Behold the anxieties of the swivel! At this level of combinations, (multiple fist contacts from all around the bag with one rebound) the swivel does make a difference. Which is why I stand by the ball-hook as my choice. This combo's are hard enough with a ball-hook, and even more difficult with a swivel that will interfere with the rebound. Ths easiest answer to your swivel problem is: Tape the bag to the center of the bar so it can't move up off the bar of slide around on it.

By the way, this answer will probably highlight why the text of the Speed Bag Bible Book is helpful, for to explain this in words, it helps to know the abbreviations and text symbols. There are various ways to write the combination ChrisM is asking about....)

Now as far as the "six punch sequence" (which is ultimately a nine-punch, I can only do six consistently..) I would suggest you forget about the 6 punches, and only focus on the next punch in the sequence. Here is where you are going, with each punch written individually:

FCP ' FCP ' SSP ' RSP ' RSP ' SSP ' .....( RSP ' RSP ' SSP ) - repeat.

to put fists to this:

R-FCP ' L-FCP ' R-SSP ' L-RSP ' R-RSP ' L-SSP '..

Now, think about this another way: ( I do this in the book, page 145) Move the two punch sequence to a three punch sequence.

R-L (FDP) ' (R)-SSP. First, let's examine this three punch sequence (two techniques) which can repeat itself after two rebounds:

R-L (FDP) ' (R)-SSP ' ' R-L (FDP) ' (R)-SSP. I find this much easier to visual when the lead technique is the FDP. Now, the FDP has several fist variations. I suggest you make the second fist contact (Left) in the Front Double Punch (FDP) in a Front Straight Punch position. Why? because the FSP connection is an inward motion, and moves your body (shoulders) to the right in this example. and the right side is where your right fist needs to go after leading the FDP. You right (leading) fist will naturally flow to the right side of the bag if it is followed by the left fist going in that direction, which a FSP will do. (The FCP actually angles your body away from where you need to be.) It is a little more difficult to loop your right fist out to the right side after a Left-FCP.

but another practice tip is to try and do a Side Single Punch as an extension of a Front Fist Roll. R-L-R-L-R-L(F-Roll) ' (R)-SSP.

Either way, you now have the THREE punch sequence.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, let's make it a four punch sequence. After the SSP, comes the RSP with the other hand.

R-L (FDP) ' (R)-(SSP) ' "L" (RSP) the Left fist "L" was the second fist of the FDP, and passed through to the back. Now this is a four punch sequence. But we can also write the last two connections: SSP ' RSP as a technique: The Side-Reverse Double Punch (S-RDP). That makes:

R-L (FDP) ' R-L (S-RDP). To get the fist movements down for this two technique combination, do this with three rebounds instead of one. ( and it is again easier if the second fist in the FDP is in a straight punch contact. try it sitting there without the bag, and notice how your right fist will kinda end up in the right side position..)

R-L (FDP) ' ' ' R-L (S-RDP) ... repeat.

So the fourth punch is the RSP behind the bag.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When you can do the above easily, focus on the FIFTH punch, which will require taking the Fist making the SSP (R) to get behind the bag after one rebound. As the left fist hits the RSP, just let the right fist Roll up into the back of the bag, like doing a R-Roll. (This shouldn't be too difficult, for the right fist probably connected in the Side-reverse panel of the bag anyway, making it more like a reverse contact than a side contact)

If that is hard to do, break it down again to a simpler practice exercise. Try doing a R-L Side-Reverse Double Punch, followed by a R-RSP after THREE rebounds.

R-L (S-RDP) ' ' ' R (RSP)

or by individual punches: R-(SSP) ' L (RSP) ' ' ' R-(RSP)

when you can do that, change three rebounds to one rebound.

R-(SSP) ' L (RSP) ' R-(RSP)

another practice tip to get these fist movements: try this: start with three rebounds:

R (SSP) ' ' ' L-R (RDP) - [then go to one rebound] R (SSP) ' L-R (RDP) in time this will feel much like a three punch R-Roll.

So, now this FIVE punch sequence can be written using three techniques from the front, side and reverse areas of the bag.

R-L (FDP) ' (R)-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP)

Practice the above sequence without the bag. Air punch and move the fists slowly. On the bag, You will notice that it may help to drop your elbows a bit to get the upper part of the forearm out of the way of the rebounding bag. the fists and the bag are in very close proximity in this combination, and sometimes the forearm angles need to be adjust just a bit to make room. Especially the Right Arm after the SSP.

Just for fun, try doing this. Instead of ending with the (RDP), make it a Reverse Fist Roll

R-L (FDP) ' (R)-(SSP) ' L-R-L-R-L-R.. (R-Roll)

for a better grasp, Try going Front-Fist Roll (F-Roll) Side Single Punch (SSP), Reverse-Fist Roll (R-Roll)

R-L-R-L-R-L(F-Roll) ' (R)-(SSP) ' L-R-L-R-L-R.. (R-Roll)

(* notice in the above combination (F-Roll) ' SSP ' (R-Roll) that you just Rolled your fists around the bag with One Rebound inbetween. Pretty Cool )

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, for that Six Punch, A SSP from the left side of the bag. Let's break it down. Behind the bag, we just ended with a (RDP) and the last fist to hit was the Right fist. You want to follow this with a Left SSP. (Actually these two punches create the R-L Reverse-Side Double Punch - but we won't write it that way)

Try this to learn the motion, again starting with three rebounds.

L-R (RDP) ' ' ' L-(SSP). as the Right Fist connects, let the L roll outward and upwards into the SIDE area of the bag. It will be more of a Side-Reverse contact, but no matter. it will work.

after you can do this with three rebounds, move to one. L-R (RDP) ' L-(SSP).

Once this motion feels comfortable (going from RDP to SSP on one rebound), then add it onto the five punch sequence, creating the SIX punch sequence.

R-L (FDP) ' (R)-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP) ' L (SSP)

Practice this sitting wtihout the bag. Start from any technique in the sequence, and air punch the moves. They happen extremely fast on the bag.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As you can tell from the above, it is very complicated to explain this in a text format. that was the challenge I faced in creating the book. You can see it and hear it on the video, but can you remember it when you get to the bag?? Most people I originally worked with could not, which is why I wrote the book so people could follow the TEXT exercises under the board to remember all the fist orders and highlight some variations.

by the way, I called these "super advanced" combinations, because the advanced punching combinations join techiques from the SAME side with one rebound. These combinations discussed above join techniques from "different sides" and chose to call them "super" advanced to make that distinction. ( so now you know....)

Just look at the sequence and do the technique movements. You have Two Double Punches with a side single inbetween, or you have two side single punches with a Reverse Double Punch in between. finally, practice this last sequence by itself.

R-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP) ' L-(SSP)

anyway, ChrisM, I hope some of these tips help you.
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Last edited by Speedbag; 10-07-2006 at 01:23 PM.
  #2  
Old 10-07-2006, 08:11 PM
Chris M Chris M is offline
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Your tips help tremendously Alan. As I was reading this, I was slowly punching the air and I can see how making a FSP instead of a FCP would make it easier to follow up with the R SSP. My goal on this technique is to get the 3 hit sequence down pat and then move on to 4, then 5 and so on. You seem to be so close to going beyond 6, I can't believe with all your years of doing this that you haven't been able to progress beyond it. I guess as long as there are theoretical sequences and techniques, we've always got something to work towards.

I do have the speedbag bible, I just haven't paid nearly as much attention to it than I have the DVD's.

Right now, I'm super exhausted (I did lift weights and run three miles at the gym early this morning too) and I just got home from my son's football game, it was one of the most exciting games I've been to, his team won by one touchdown in the last 3 minutes 12-7! It was a real nail biter!

I'll read this again tomorrow when I'm not so beat.

Thanks for the response and thanks for moving my question to another topic. I just threw it in there because I had been working on that new technique this morning after working out and I just stuck it in there while I was thinking about it.

I'll be interested to see what other people on the board have to say about the advanced techniques.

I continue to learn and progress Master! Someday I will walk the rice paper and snatch the pebbles from your hand.

Last edited by Chris M; 10-07-2006 at 08:34 PM.
  #3  
Old 10-07-2006, 10:21 PM
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advanced combinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris M View Post
Your tips help tremendously Alan. As I was reading this, I was slowly punching the air and I can see how making a FSP instead of a FCP would make it easier to follow up with the R SSP. My goal on this technique is to get the 3 hit sequence down pat and then move on to 4, then 5 and so on. You seem to be so close to going beyond 6, I can't believe with all your years of doing this that you haven't been able to progress beyond it. I guess as long as there are theoretical sequences and techniques, we've always got something to work towards...
Well, I have actually gone beyond 6, and have done the full 9 punches, but I can't do it routinely. I can get the 6 say, 8 out of 10 tries. I may get to seven or eight 3 out of 10 tries. but completing the sequence is extremely hard, and rarely happens. The reasons it is so hard is because it all happens behind the bag or on the sides, both areas that you can't really see.

The full nine are: R-L (FDP) ' R-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP) ' L-(SSP) ' R-L (RDP) ' R-(SSP)...repeat.



Remember, the Sixth Punch is the Left Side Single Punch. After this, you have to go back around the back of the bag. The seventh punch is a Right Reverse Single Punch (RSP) , the eigth punch is the Left Reverse Single (RSP) Punch [ this makes 7 & 8 a RDP) and the nineth is a Right Side Single Punch (SSP) - same as punch 3.

Here is the sequence: Punch 1&2(FDP) ' 3(R side) ' 4(rear) ' 5(rear) ' 6(L side) ' 7(rear) ' 8(rear) ' 9(R side) All with only one rebound inbetween.

(* 4-&-5 are RDP, and 7-&-8 are RDP)

Seven punches of this nine punch sequence are out of your field of view (side and behind). If you can't locate your hand behind the bag, or control your fist angles you'll be lost. The advanced Reverse Double Punching skills are used here.

Actually, you can air punch the seven punches, starting from the first SSP.

R-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP) ' L-(SSP) ' R-L (RDP) ' R-(SSP)...repeat.

(* tip: All of this is easier (for me, anyway) on a smaller bag. Longer bags (11x8) force you to lean back to far to get your nose out of the way, making it more difficult to get the fists around in position. Try a 9x6 or 8x5, go SLOW. Learn the fist movements first.)


ChrisM: When you can do the seven punches (starting from the side) more than 6 out of 10 tens, or 3-4 times in a row, you got it knocked. Believe me, I'll give you the pebbles.
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Last edited by Speedbag; 10-08-2006 at 02:20 AM.
  #4  
Old 10-08-2006, 09:42 AM
Chris M Chris M is offline
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After getting a good night's rest, I tried it again and the three count thing is really not that hard. I think the combination of muscle fatigue and lack of sleep was getting to me. I even got the four count a couple of times.

I tried it after I did some air punches and rehearsed it in my head and then did it as slow as I possible could on my 10x7 bag and what do you know? It worked! I want to go back and work on the four count thing now.

Also, I did have the bag taped to the bar, I think my biggest problem was I just trying to do it at full speed. You'd think I would have learned by now that it just doesn't work that way!
  #5  
Old 10-08-2006, 12:23 PM
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Super Advanced combo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris M View Post
After getting a good night's rest, I tried it again and the three count thing is really not that hard. I think the combination of muscle fatigue and lack of sleep was getting to me. I even got the four count a couple of times.

I tried it after I did some air punches and rehearsed it in my head and then did it as slow as I possible could on my 10x7 bag and what do you know? It worked! I want to go back and work on the four count thing now.
ChrisM:
This is a great place to work on Fist Control around the bag. For a few workouts, focus on other possibilities to create fist mastery.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Fourth Punch in this combination is a KEY spot for practicing this on the other side of the bag, for it repeats itself easily. Here is how it works.

The Four Punches: R-L (FDP) ' R-(SSP) ' L (RSP)

Focus on where the fists go after each punch. Going forward to the Fifth Punch, the Right fist in the SSP would go behind to make the RSP a RDP. Instead, bring the 3rd Fist, (R-SSP) back to the front. It will come directly to your chin (the home position) as you do the RSP. Now the 4th punch (L-RSP) hits behind and returns to the front. This Left Fist will be directly in front (lead Fist) of your right fist. Now your fists are in perfect position to do this same four punch combo around the other side of the bag after two rebounds.

R-L (FDP) ' R-(SSP) ' L (RSP) ' ' L-R (FDP) ' L-(SSP) ' R (RSP) ' ' ...repeat.

or written another way: R-L (FDP) ' R-L (S-RDP) ' ' L-R (FDP) ' L-R (S-RDP) ' ' ...repeat

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now go to the next punch the Fifth. Another Key punch.

The Five Punches: R-L (FDP) ' R-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP)

After the RDP, bring both fists back to the FRONT. The Left will come to the Chin, the Right will be in Front (lead Fist) This will bring the fists directly into the home position, and the combo will repeat itself around the SAME side of the bag after Two Rebounds.

R-L (FDP) ' R-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP) ' ' R-L (FDP) ' R-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP)

I show this combo on page 147 #3D
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After this fifth Punch you can also use the advanced manuever of Rotating the Fists, and do this 5 punch sequence around the other side of the Bag. After the RDP, the fists naturally return to the front in same position as they started (left at chin (2nd fist of FDP) and Right in Front (Lead Fist of FDP). This easily allows for the R-L FDP to go around the same side. Rotate the Fist order of this FDP, creating a L-R fist order for the FDP.


R-L (FDP) ' R-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP) ' ' L-R (FDP) ' L-(SSP) ' R-L (RDP) ' ' ...

I show this exercise on page 147 #3F. I address it by "moving the SDP to the other side". I say it is "..a hairy exercise" - and it is, especially if you continously rotate contacts 6 - 7, the FDP. AIR PUNCH it slowly.

* Here is a tip: After the 5th Punch, the next FDP would be punches 6 & 7 of this combination. To do this 5 punch sequence around the Same side of the bag just allow punches 6 & 7 to occur naturally (not rotating the fist). To go around the other side, Rotate the fist order of Punches 6 & 7.

Dont' be afraid of this or think you can't do it or it is too confusing. The fact that you are even considering the super advanced combinations makes it possible. Read the below part carefully and air punch it slowly. It is complicated, but amazing.

The secret to exercise #3F page 147 is knowing that the Fist rotation occurs as part of the natural flow. The fists don't return to the front first, and then rotate. You have to begin this rotatation during the RDP. Here is how. Punch Four, (Left) leads the RDP. It connects and pass under. AS the RIGHT fist connects in the RDP (Punch #5), the left begins to roll up to the chin and move foreward. The Right fist connects in the RDP, and passes under to the front of the bag. As ithe Right fist passes under, the Left is Rolling up and over the Right, and keeps going to lead the FDP. There is absolutely NO Pause in this movement. An easier way to practice this is just do a RDP ' ' FDP and keep rotating the FDP fist order. Notice how the rotation has to occur with NO pause. In this super Advanced combo the rotation occurs quickly in the middle of the sequence, but the movement is the same. ( and that is why I put "rotating the Fists" as an advanced skill on page 131 to be practiced well before this super advanced combo.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

R-L (FDP) ' R-(SSP) ' L-R (RDP) ' ' L-R (FDP) ' L-(SSP) ' R-L (RDP) ' ' ... repeat

This combination, (written above, #3F, page 147) with the Rotated Fist order of the FDP is truly one of my favorite combinations. Look at the fist order of these 10 punches. R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L. To pull this off, the fists are constantly rolling around all areas of the bag and also seem to be rolling over each other. Air Punch it Slowly. Do this 5 times in row. That's 50 punches around the bag, with only one or two rebounds in between.

You CAN do this, Chris. The secret at his level is in the air punching before, because it happens REAL fast on the bag.
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Last edited by Speedbag; 10-08-2006 at 12:27 PM.
  #6  
Old 10-09-2006, 09:57 AM
Chris M Chris M is offline
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Quote:
You CAN do this, Chris. The secret at his level is in the air punching before, because it happens REAL fast on the bag.
I'm not being cocky at all when I say that I'm sure I can do them eventually. It's just a matter of practice, practice, practice. I've been able to do a lot of seemingly impossible tasks by breaking them down to steps or phases and just concentrating on the task at hand and not the big picture.

I'll continue to practice and be patient. I really get a lot of satisfaction out of learning new techniques that seemed absolutely impossible when I first saw them. Looking back, many of the things that I thought were so mind boggling I can now do with ease and the only amazing thing now is that I thought they were so hard at one time.

By the way, one of the things I've found that helps me is to air punch when I'm running on the treadmill or eliptical machine when I'm at the gym. I probably get some weird looks (my gym doesn't have any bags so they probably have no idea what I'm doing) when I'm doing it, but air punching and visualizing what I'm doing gives an added boost of confidence. Besides, rehearsing it over and over eliminates any pausing when I forget what I'm supposed to do next. Just rehearsing the five or six count is a confidence booster in itself for me because it's pretty complicated.

Thanks for your assistance and encouragement Alan!

Last edited by Chris M; 10-09-2006 at 10:10 AM.
  #7  
Old 10-09-2006, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris M View Post
...By the way, one of the things I've found that helps me is to air punch when I'm running on the treadmill or eliptical machine when I'm at the gym. I probably get some weird looks (my gym doesn't have any bags so they probably have no idea what I'm doing) when I'm doing it, but air punching and visualizing what I'm doing gives an added boost of confidence. Besides, rehearsing it over and over eliminates any pausing when I forget what I'm supposed to do next. Just rehearsing the five or six count is a confidence booster in itself for me because it's pretty complicated.

Thanks for your assistance and encouragement Alan!
HA! that takes me back to when I was writing the book and creating the exercises. Sitting in a restaurant, air punching combinations, then writing them down on napkins. Lots of weird looks.

true story: a waitress came over and said "those people over there were wondering what you're doing.."

I call it a symptom of the addiction. As addictions go, there are lots of worse ones. Guess we'll have to start a group:
AP (air punchers anonymous)
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  #8  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:10 PM
Chris M Chris M is offline
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Quote:
I call it a symptom of the addiction. As addictions go, there are lots of worse ones. Guess we'll have to start a group:
AP (air punchers anonymous)
"Hi, I'm Chris and I'm an Air Puncher...."
  #9  
Old 10-13-2006, 11:46 AM
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Question Right-angle turns

Quote:
R-L (FDP) ' (R)-SSP
Is there a trick to a 90 degree change in direction i.e. from a front punch to side? I imagine the timing would be an order of magnitude greater than in a combination keeping in the same direction.

Do you actually hit the bag at a slightly different angle?

For example, in the above sequence, if you are facing North, after you hit the bag with the left hand so it goes North, then rebounds South, then with the side of the right hand do you hit it directly West, or more Southwest?
  #10  
Old 10-13-2006, 01:23 PM
Chris M Chris M is offline
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I've only been working on advanced techniques and combinations for the last few weeks, so I am by no means an expert, but I can perform some of the advanced techniques. The more advanced ones such as the 6 count that we've been discussing is nothing more than a far-off goal for me at this time.

These advanced combinations are actually in Alan's 4th DVD and the best way I can describe it is similar to a FDP, but it's a three, four, five, or six punch that starts with a double punch and goes around the bag starting at the right and going around to the back, then the left. You do actually hit from a different angle. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, do a double punch, but instead of doing your second punch as a FCP or FSP, do it as a hook punch with no bounce in between each hit.

To use your analogy, you do a double punch, both to the north, then one side punch towards the west, then a double punch from the south, then a side punch towards the east. There is no rebound in between each of these hits, when done correctly, it will sound like a six count fist roll.

As always, it is in the Speed Bag Bible and you can view it on the DVD. Maybe Alan can post a clip of him doing it, because all I can do is the three count consistently and sometimes the fourth. Even then, when I make contact on the fourth hit, it's not a consistently square hit that I can follow up with the fifth hit.

It's one of those things that doesn't look nearly as hard as it really is, especially when Alan does it.

Of course, I thought the same thing about elbow strikes at one time.... Not that I'm saying that any of this is easy!
 

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