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Swivels Questions and answers for swivel installation, problems, and improvements

 
 
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  #1  
Old 05-27-2006, 12:28 PM
KevinDesroches KevinDesroches is offline
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Metal Ball And Hook Swivel Dangerous?

in 1997 i bought my first speed bag set up from sports authority , it was the chuck norris speed bag set , included a fiberglass -like plastic as the drum and basicaly was all plastic except it did come with the ball and hook everlast swivel.
well at the time i wasnt too informed about speed bag set ups and i didnt really know the way things should be done but i figured through trial and error id pic up on it sooner or later.
something was wrong from the begining because i couldnt get the bad to rebound correctly without really really hitting it hard, and i figured well this is probably how youre suppose to hit it . i wasnt aware that the boards bad rebounding effect was making me get very frustrated, i figured everything i needed shouldve ben included in this set so i must be hitting the bag wrong.
a few hours after hitting the bag one day my eye started botherin me, i didnt know what it was, i went to doctor and he said its pink eye and gave me the medicine for that.
to make a long story short it wasnt pink eye but a speck of metal off the swivel in my eye .even the eye doctor didnt believe it , he figured i was doin sum metal work or sumthing. i never even felt anything go in it , so i wasnt sure my self, so i didnt think too much about it. i fgured maybe i rubbed sumthing in my eye that was on my hand.
then it happend again , and i figured the swivel was bad, so i bought new one , everlast ball and hook all metal 2 piece.
it happend to me again, and even again! u would think id learn , but i never heard of anyone else having this problem so i was kinda in denial i guess.
eventualy i had t start wearin eye protection and i practiced that way from then on and i was fine
now i have a balasz pro set up that cost me $600 and its awesome. but i dont like the chain link. so i hooked my old ball hook on it and i love it , and im not having rebound problems so i dont have to hit like a maniac to make it rebound.
but im scared its gunna happen again! is this a normal occurance with the ball hook? i like the style the best cuz of the sound and reobounding but i dont wanna go back to eye doc and get steel removed from my eye again
did this ever happend to anyone else? i thought these 2 piece metal swivels were pretty durable and shoule be able to withstand any kind of punches. is there a limit to how hard i should hit the bag?
i wanna convince myself it was all because of a bad rebound board that made the steel virbate into my eye cuz i was punchin tooo hard too much.
Help me out here . i wanna go back to using the ball and hook cuz its the best sound for the rhythem stuff . someone tell me i wont get steel in the eye again cuz i have a better rebound board now!
  #2  
Old 05-27-2006, 01:41 PM
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Metal hook problems

HI Kevin,

Your story is very interesting, and actually confirms (for me anyway) what I was told by several of my speed bag supplier contacts when I asked why Everlast abandoned the two piece metal #440 and went to plastic.

I have repeated been told that the reason was complaints about the metal flaking off. I originally had two beliefs on this.

First, it was probably a financial consideration, saving production costs to mass produce a single piece in plastic. (remember, (old speedbaggers....) they had already tried the plastic base, and found that these threads stripped way too easy. Why not change the whole thing to a single piece plastic...). Notice, this signficantly lowered the retail price of their "S-HOOK" swivel from $14.95 to $9.95. When is the last time you saw a retail price on anything drop - with a product improvement??)

Second, IF the metal was flaking off, it was because they went to a lower cost, cheaper, softer metal. Many single piece metal S-Hooks do this. It has a soft metal housing, and after a few thousand rebounds (remember, housing gets hit three times for every single punch in the triplet rhythm, and twice for every pass through..).
My own inspections of my older (10-15 year old S-Hooks,) versus the newer ones confirms this, for the swivels I purchased in the last 90's and 2000, 2001 found the ball housing "giving" or "pounding down" faster. I have an old
#4440 S-Hook that I pounding for many years, with very little housing wear, and the metal S shank is still solid. It actually was retired about 1999 or 2000. It appears on the board here and in my teaching DVD's.

But regardless of "why" the metal flakes off, Judging by kevin's experience, it apparently WAS flaking off. It's possible that many people (thousands of swivels sold each year) who have nothing to do with metal fabrication or have any reason to seek medical help for occupational eye problems, may have had a similiar experience and contacted the company. IF that happened (personally don't know...) then I bet the lawyers got involved and said "ditch the metal".

As a point of concern, I'm wondering about the other Everlast metal Swivel #4444, such as: Everlast top Professional model and Swivels 2 & 4 here on the forum or Balasz Boxing speed bag swivel. None of these have metal Hitting metal, but they have metal shearing on metal as the chain connection turns near the housing on the board. I'm sure the force is light, since the bag and "punch force" is down away from this area, but in theory, metal flakes could come off. And as Kevin reports with the ballhook, the metal can land in your eyes.

Personally, this is my first contact with confirmation of metal in the eye. Having been under the board punching, rather aggressively at times, for over 30 years - I have sometimes gotten something in my eye but normally considered it to be a something off the cheap wafer board or dirt, dust on the bag. Or any eyelash, etc. I have never sought medical attention for it, and this is the first report (that I have heard) from someone who has.

All's I know is this: My friends at Titleboxing (Owners and equipment Quality Control staff) and Balazs Boxing told me that Everlast discontinued the two piece "S" hook "..due to complaints about the metallic dust or chips coming off"

I am sorry that happened to You, Kevin. It does give cause for concern about recommending members search for this swivel.

For anyone interested, My second favorite swivel is Swivel #3 on the forum link, or this Pro delux at Titleboxing or here at Ringside Pro Delux

These swivels present a few issues I don't like, and I personally modify when I use one, but there is apparently no way the metal can flak off, for any contact is inside the housing.

Kevin, thanks for posting your experience. It has added greatly to this forum, where ALL speed bag issues are open for discussion.
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Last edited by Speedbag; 05-27-2006 at 01:53 PM. Reason: additional link located
  #3  
Old 05-27-2006, 02:17 PM
KevinDesroches KevinDesroches is offline
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think ill go with # 3 now

as disapointing as it is ,its good to know i wasnt the only one who was having problems like that, i was just going to purchase an all metal one from the link in the other post beacause they do have them in stock but im not confindent in their integrity. i think ill try the # 3 and tape the bag in the middle as u suggested and see how that goes.
Thanks
  #4  
Old 05-27-2006, 02:43 PM
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Speed bag swivel modification

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDesroches
as disapointing as it is ,its good to know i wasnt the only one who was having problems like that, i was just going to purchase an all metal one from the link in the other post beacause they do have them in stock but im not confindent in their integrity. i think ill try the # 3 and tape the bag in the middle as u suggested and see how that goes.
Thanks
OK. To review, I do Two things, both to secure the Speed Bag to the U-bar.

(1) First, with bag centered on the bar, I pull down on the bag to pull the attachment strap tight, and put a thin (1/2) strip of silver duct tape around the bag strap. the tape does not touch the metal bar, only squeezes the strap space smaller (* this is only needed if your bag has a long strap, which can cause it to lose contact with the bar and "float" over it if hit upwards)

(2). Second, With bag centered on bar, I use a longer 1/2 inch strip of duct tape, and figure-8 this around the bag strap edges and the bar. This actually tapes the bag onto the bar. I normally make a few turns. The first overlaps the bag edges on both sides and puts about half of that tape strip on the bar. the next one overlaps a little further out and puts a little more of the tape on the bar. That usually secures it, but a third turn can be made.

You have to be careful to have your bag centered and hanging straight, for if it is crooked when taped - it will hang crooked and rebound weird. With the bag taped straight to the bar, it will prevent the bag from "sliding along the bar".
When the bag can no longer "float" upward from a misshit, (this launches the bag off an S-hook..) or "slide" along the bar, then this is really a good quiet swivel. I find the action clean and gives a quality, predictable rebound. However, you should remember that adding the tape stips also adds the "weight of the tape", and if it's not centered, it can alter the bag movement. By keeping all the tape in the center of the bar, it keeps the action reliable.

If you do this and your bag seems to be rebound "funny", consider stripping off the tape the trying again.
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Last edited by Speedbag; 05-27-2006 at 02:46 PM.
  #5  
Old 05-27-2006, 03:10 PM
KevinDesroches KevinDesroches is offline
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that opens up another canof worms

Hmmmm, i like to change bags alot, that may not be the ticket for me then, what do u think of the plastic version of the ball hook as far as its resposiveness to how its being hit?
  #6  
Old 05-27-2006, 06:55 PM
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speed bag swivel

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDesroches
Hmmmm, i like to change bags alot, that may not be the ticket for me then, what do u think of the plastic version of the ball hook as far as its resposiveness to how its being hit?
To be perfectly honest, I have not personally hit one. I have heard from some people they are really nice (once you get the S-shaft glued into the ball...), and I have heard from others that don't like it. I get a lot of private email concerning speed bag equipment etc., and it seems to favor "liking it", as opposed to using the chain link versions.

In an attempt to purchase a small stash of the metal Ballhooks, I was also conned into ordering the metal shown picture, only to receive several of the plastic version. I haven't hung one to try it. I kept them for later research and to have this version before it becomes something else. I suppose I should put one up and try it to have first hand knowledge. Just haven't made the leap yet. I'm not sure how easy the newer thick strap bags go over that particular "S" shape. If you don't know what I'm talking about, the "S" hook shape has also changed over the years, as well as the bag straps that have to attach to them. What use to be easy can now be a royal pain.

changing bags on the super speed swivel is very fast, AFTER you take the tape off. They have on of these at the YMCA where I go (when they can find the bottom part...) and it takes me about 3 or 4 minutes to tape my bag on.

IF I was going to use the U-Bolt swivel as my constant home unit, I would get several of them and put one size bag on each. Then I'd just have to change bars, which is easy. But at $29 - $39 each, that's a pretty fair investment in swivels.

for me personally, I stick to an 8x5 bag mostly, and occasionally go to the 9x6. They are easier on my left shoulder (to be replaced in the not to distant future) and require less punching force to hit to the music I like.
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  #7  
Old 05-27-2006, 07:09 PM
KevinDesroches KevinDesroches is offline
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not a bad idea

thiat makes sense , i probably could survive right now just hanging the 5x8 i use, its really the sound of the ole ball and hook ill miss, guess if i really need to hear it i can put on the ole safetly glasses again and give up DES
on that subject, have u ever used the goggles with the strap around the head , i wonder if that maybe ok to use while DESing.
by the way im just realizing youre "THE" ALaN KAHN, the speed bag bible guy! i have the 4 videos and the bible ! thanks for making them cuz they definatly helped me out , i can say those videos and tapes taught me alll most the stuff i know now .
just wondering, what swivel does John Baca prefer? i noticed hes very good at the bag too, not as good as u though
  #8  
Old 05-28-2006, 12:32 AM
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Speed bag and John Baca

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDesroches
thiat makes sense , i probably could survive right now just hanging the 5x8 i use, its really the sound of the ole ball and hook ill miss, guess if i really need to hear it i can put on the ole safetly glasses again and give up DES
on that subject, have u ever used the goggles with the strap around the head , i wonder if that maybe ok to use while DESing.
by the way im just realizing youre "THE" ALAN KAHN, the speed bag bible guy! i have the 4 videos and the bible ! thanks for making them cuz they definatly helped me out , i can say those videos and tapes taught me alll most the stuff i know now .
just wondering, what swivel does John Baca prefer? i noticed hes very good at the bag too, not as good as u though
I have never used any goggles like you describe, but those or glasses would work to protect the eyes. IF you wear glasses, be aware that the thumb on downward elbow stikes could clip the frames and knock them off your face. The wrap around goggles would probably be better.

The swivel you see on the video clips with Congressional Medal of Honor recipient John Baca is a two piece ball hook #4440. I know because I gave it to him. Actually, I have given him several.

John is extremely good on the speed bag. He can do many of the advanced combinations I describe in the Book and videos. We are close friends and we get together at my place or his at least once a year. He learned how to hit by using the book, following the exercises and practicing the punching movements without the bag first, then trying them on the bag.

I remember the first time he ever contacted me. He was working as a ski lift helper at a ski resort in Maryland, and practicing one of the written exercises. He was convinced that my arm/hand sequence above the technique names was wrong. When I answered his phone call, he said he was a speed bag student using my book, and he wanted to tell me that one of the exercises in the Side Techniques chapter was wrong. He told me the page and exercise number. He was right. I had copied the Arm/hand sequence from another exercise, and forgot to change several of the differences. In fact, he has shown me a few slightly different ways to do some advanced front punching combination that I would now call the "Baca variations". As often happens, when you think you have reached the limit, there is a new way to do something.

I wish had some video clips of Lisa Perrone hitting the bag. Believe it or not, I think she is just as fast and smooth as John. Both can mix in all the techniques. The have also met and trained together several times.

The best part is: YOU can do it also. I firmly believe everyone can learn to do it.
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  #9  
Old 05-28-2006, 08:37 AM
Tim Tim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDesroches
a few hours after hitting the bag one day my eye started botherin me, i didnt know what it was, i went to doctor and he said its pink eye and gave me the medicine for that.
to make a long story short it wasnt pink eye but a speck of metal off the swivel in my eye .even the eye doctor didnt believe it , he figured i was doin sum metal work or sumthing. i never even felt anything go in it , so i wasnt sure my self, so i didnt think too much about it. i fgured maybe i rubbed sumthing in my eye that was on my hand.
then it happend again , and i figured the swivel was bad, so i bought new one , everlast ball and hook all metal 2 piece.
it happend to me again, and even again! u would think id learn , but i never heard of anyone else having this problem so i was kinda in denial i guess.
Wow, never had that happen to me, that's pretty scary though, if there's one thing I don't want to mess with , it's my eyesight

Did you have the ball lubed with anything? I've used chassis grease or wd40 in the past and that seems to keep the metal particles trapped in a sludge like substance around the ball and hook... Seems like if it were dry that might not be the case. Chassis grease is pretty thick, it doesn't seem to slow the swivel down (IMO). Of course this won't help for particles of significant size...

The other thing I do is periodically clean off the metal sludge around the ball and hook. I've never done this for any particular reason other than because if you accidentally touch the stuff, it makes a mess

Last edited by Tim; 05-28-2006 at 08:41 AM.
  #10  
Old 05-28-2006, 09:57 AM
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Ball hook swivel

Actually, Tim that's a great point. I always lube my swivel ball and housing similiarly with light machine oil. It kills the annoying "squeek" that can occur with metal rubbing. The oil could trap and hold metallic dust, dirt etc.
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