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Techniques and Combinations How to perform individual techniques and combinations

 
 
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  #1  
Old 10-07-2006, 07:15 AM
JimR JimR is offline
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Explanation of the FDP (Front Double Punch)

From what I've seen, the basic FDP is

1) L-FCP ' R-FCP

but I find it just as natural to do

2) L-FCP ' R-FSP

Would you say one is more "basic" than the other?

And when I am ready to burn out, making really small fast circles:

3) L-FCP ' L-FCP

(for example, L-FCP ''' L-FCP ' L-FCP ''' R-FCP ''' R-FCP ' R-FCP...)

The middle strikes may be more like letting the bag bounce off the fist than actively hitting it.

I know there are also side and reverse double punches in Alan's list of 24 techniques. Are there any other front double-punch techniques not commonly listed?

Thanks,
Jim in NJ
  #2  
Old 10-07-2006, 08:17 AM
Tim Tim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR View Post
but I find it just as natural to do

2) L-FCP ' R-FSP
Me too, I find the above easier actually. But I think that is just because I've practiced it that way much more. Not sure why that is, maybe because that is how it is illustrated on page 23 of the speed bag bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR View Post
And when I am ready to burn out, making really small fast circles:
3) L-FCP ' L-FCP
Neat... I don't think I've ever tried that one
  #3  
Old 10-07-2006, 11:05 AM
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Front Circle Punch fist Position.

Good Grief. You guys are making me work. Actually, I love it. Glad to see your thinking about variations...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR View Post
From what I've seen, the basic FDP is

1) L-FCP ' R-FCP

but I find it just as natural to do

2) L-FCP ' R-FSP

Would you say one is more "basic" than the other?
NO. From the technique standpoint, they are both the same. However, using the FCP position (your #1 above) will make it slightly easier to LINK the second fist through to the back. It is easier for most people to pass a fist through the bag after a FCP position than a FSP, for the elbow is a bit higher and the forearm is out of the way.

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Originally Posted by Tim View Post
Me too, I find the above easier actually. But I think that is just because I've practiced it that way much more. Not sure why that is, maybe because that is how it is illustrated on page 23 of the Speed Bag Bible.
Tim: In the intro text on Page 23, it says: "The motion is similiar to throwing a left and right Front Circle Punch together, or a left Front Circle and Right Front Straight Punch together.

I chose to emphasize the FCP ' FSP, only because I thought this fist contact is easier for a beginner to return the second fist back into the basic Rhythm, like in exercises #1 & #2. Since this is the first two part technique (double strike) I also did not want to confuse a beginner at this part of the learning progression by trying to manipulate the subtle differences between the fist positions within the technique.

Actually, exercises #3 & #4 on page 24 would be easier making the FCP ' FCP contact. In my next "edit" of the book, I will probably add the distinction between the contacts within the text explanations around them.

As for the picture on page 23, Yes it shows the FSP position. I actually thought about adding a smaller sub-picture showing the FCP position, but did not for several reasons. First, as stated above, I didn't want a beginner trying to focus on manipulating a fist position within a technique, and Second, ALL the technique introduction pictures are full body shots to show the legs and alignment, which created a larger picture. I tried adding the sub-picture into this page and it kept changing the text alignments and pushing lines to the next page - and it affected several pages. The biggest challenge in writing this book is keeping all the text in alignment in the exercises. With three or four lines of stacked text over each other, and special characters, one or two spaces or a new picture can really screw up two or three pages of exercises. I spent MANY hours re-aligning exercise text.

for the record, the FCP 'FCP (FDP) contact does appear in the combination pictures at the bottom of page 43 and on page 115. both show the second fist clearly landing in the FCP position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR View Post
And when I am ready to burn out, making really small fast circles:

3) L-FCP ' L-FCP

(for example, L-FCP ''' L-FCP ' L-FCP ''' R-FCP ''' R-FCP ' R-FCP...)

The middle strikes may be more like letting the bag bounce off the fist than actively hitting it.
JimR, concerning your exercise above: 3) L-FCP ' L-FCP I viewed this as an "advanced" punching sequence, and show it on page 121. I did this for several reasons. First (and foremost) the advanced section moves away from the normal triplet rhythm sequences for repetitive punching technques from the SAME Side of the Bag. A beginner needs to learn FCP ' ' ' FCP with three rebounds and a smooth small circle motion. Now "three" is an odd number, and so is "1", so you can advance any three rebound combination to a ONE rebound combination - as you have done. It happens very quickly, and it is not really a smooth natural motion, for you have to momentarily pause the fist to keep in the way of the rebounding bag, and when the bag hits it, you must re-fire the fist to move or the bag will lose speed. Just for fun, try this: FDP ' FDP, or this OTES ' FDP. Pretty easy with three rebounds inbetween. More challenging with only one. I don't want a beginner to struggle with that.

The second reason I put this in the advanced section is, the advanced chapter (#10) starts breaking the "Rules of Rhythm" and introducing the possibilities of doing many combinations with only ONE rebound inbetween, from any side of the bag. I started this from the front, going back to the easiest techniques, which is the FCP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR View Post
I know there are also side and reverse double punches in Alan's list of 24 techniques. Are there any other front double-punch techniques not commonly listed?
Thanks,
Jim in NJ
YES, there are many other variations of surface contacts to the bag. But your question brings up a very technical distinction. You say "..any front double-punch techniques.."

The terminology used in MY descriptions of speed bag techniques was created to be very specific, which I explain in chapter #3, page 15-18. The term "PUNCH" is used when only the fists contact the bag in a closed position. The Technique name "FRONT DOUBLE PUNCH" indicates (1) the area of the bag (Front) (2) number of parts in the technique (Double), (3) parts involved - fists (Punch). Virtually every technique name follows that sequence: area, number of parts, fists or elbows. That allowed me to create consistent symbol abbreviations to write the exercises, which can get quite complicated. ( only one technique does NOT follow this rule. Do you know which one? ) All 12 techniques that feature an Elbow are called Elbow strikes, not punches.

In your original question about the "Front Double Punch" you noted there are different fist positions for this, (and there are varied fist positions within several techniques, depending on where it's going after the punch..) I chose NOT to try and add these differences into the names or exercises, for the system was already complicated enough on paper. You can also do the Front Double Punch by changing the lead fist: FSP ' FSP or FSP ' FCP. (which works very well after shoulder surgery, by the way - when you can't raise your elbow outward..) But it is still a FDP. If I tried to accomodate all the fist variations within the same technique - the names would become impossible and the text to explain it would have added many pages to a book that may already be too long.

When you add in the elbows, you can get many more variations. With four parts, [ x2-elbows, x2-fists ] You can easily create all kinds of undocumented orders. For instance, take the Outward-Triple Elbow Strike OTES, which is (1) outward Elbow, (2) Same arm fist, (3) other arm fist (..in FCP or FSP position..)

OK, drop #2, and just do (1)Left-Outward Elbow (2) Right-FSP or FCP.
Possible, yes. What will you call it? (so you can abbreviate it)

do the same thing for the Downward-Triple Elbow Strike, which is (1) FCP fist (2) Downward Elbow of other Arm (3) FCP contact of other arm (same arm as the elbow) or a L/R-R order. OK, drop the last fist, so you have a (1) Left-FCP and (2) Right-downward Elbow. that is a legitimate two surface technique, but what will you call it? and is it a SMOOTH motion that easily flows back into the basic rhythm? No way. Most variations I have found are awkward and add little to the hitting experience. I chose not to follow that path.

there lies the dilemma. There are many un-named variations, but I just didn't see the point of expanding on all the variations. And to me, it would all be advanced variations anyway.

There are ENDLESS variations of ways to combine fists and elbows on the bag. Martial artists may create a "Front Double Strike" by joining an outward knife-hand strike and a downward hammer fist with one rebound inbetween. [ I use the term "strike" because the lead fist is not closed but open with extended fingers. the word "punch" implies a closed fist - which is why it is called a "knife hand strike", not a Knife Hand Punch.]
I know a guy who does the Outward Triple Elbow Strike by using a HOOK punch as the third contact, rather than a FSP or FCP. He does that to get into a Hook punching sequence afterward. I believe many combinations still wait to be discovered.

Believe it or not, I did contemplate much of this during the five years of creating the Speed Bag Bible text. Names and abbreviations, along with the teaching sequence (order of presentation changed) changed several times. The current version of the text (5th printing) has been significantly edited from the Original printing. To me, it's a living document and always subject to change. Some of these variations are addressed in the Video's, since they were done later.

Great post. I love it when people question and consider the other possibilities.
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Last edited by Speedbag; 10-07-2006 at 11:11 AM.
  #4  
Old 10-08-2006, 11:26 AM
JimR JimR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedbag View Post

JimR, concerning your exercise above: 3) L-FCP ' L-FCP I viewed this as an "advanced" punching sequence, and show it on page 121. I did this for several reasons. First (and foremost) the advanced section moves away from the normal triplet rhythm sequences for repetitive punching technques from the SAME Side of the Bag. A beginner needs to learn FCP ' ' ' FCP with three rebounds and a smooth small circle motion.
Oh, I just figured from the beginning that any technique involving "double" would be on the more advanced side. I started hitting the bag in July, and I don't think I attempted the double-elbow strikes until Sept.
Quote:
Now "three" is an odd number, and so is "1", so you can advance any three rebound combination to a ONE rebound combination - as you have done. It happens very quickly, and it is not really a smooth natural motion, for you have to momentarily pause the fist to keep in the way of the rebounding bag, and when the bag hits it, you must re-fire the fist to move or the bag will lose speed. Just for fun, try this: FDP ' FDP, or this OTES ' FDP. Pretty easy with three rebounds inbetween. More challenging with only one. I don't want a beginner to struggle with that.
I tried the first one - FDP ' FDP - slowly and gently this morning.

(Wait, do you call that - "alternating fist double-punches" or "single-fist double punch alternating" or what?).

The tricks are to 1) get the current hand out of the way quick enough and 2) get the next hand up close in time to switch.

I also increased to a roll of 4 reps of 1 fist with 1 rebound, either FCP or FSP. e.g. L-FCP ' L-FCP ' L-FCP ' L-FCP. Straight punches are easier than circles, b/c you just bounce the fist back and forth in time with the bag.

BTW, I'm 54yo and never hit the speed bag before July. (Altho I've had martial arts training when I was younger, like T'ai Chi Ch'uan boxing). I may not have great technique, but I'm not turning pro soon. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?
Quote:
The second reason I put this in the advanced section is, the advanced chapter (#10) starts breaking the "Rules of Rhythm" and introducing the possibilities of doing many combinations with only ONE rebound inbetween, from any side of the bag. I started this from the front, going back to the easiest techniques, which is the FCP.
Thanks for confirming that, I was just thinking that most, if not all, combinations could be speeded up by having one rebound instead of 3.
Quote:
YES, there are many other variations of surface contacts to the bag. But your question brings up a very technical distinction. You say "..any front double-punch techniques.."

The terminology used in MY descriptions of speed bag techniques was created to be very specific, which I explain in chapter #3, page 15-18. The term "PUNCH" is used when only the fists contact the bag in a closed position. The Technique name "FRONT DOUBLE PUNCH" indicates (1) the area of the bag (Front) (2) number of parts in the technique (Double), (3) parts involved - fists (Punch). Virtually every technique name follows that sequence: area, number of parts, fists or elbows. That allowed me to create consistent symbol abbreviations to write the exercises, which can get quite complicated. ( only one technique does NOT follow this rule. Do you know which one? ) All 12 techniques that feature an Elbow are called Elbow strikes, not punches.
I did realize that, I purposely said "punches" because I didn't want to get into all the double-elbows that you have already described.

Of course, the FCP doesn't have the number of parts in your terminology. (And I always wondered why the reverse circle punch is "RSP" instead of "RCP").

Quote:
In your original question about the "Front Double Punch" you noted there are different fist positions for this, (and there are varied fist positions within several techniques, depending on where it's going after the punch..) I chose NOT to try and add these differences into the names or exercises, for the system was already complicated enough on paper. You can also do the Front Double Punch by changing the lead fist: FSP ' FSP or FSP ' FCP. (which works very well after shoulder surgery, by the way - when you can't raise your elbow outward..) But it is still a FDP. If I tried to accomodate all the fist variations within the same technique - the names would become impossible and the text to explain it would have added many pages to a book that may already be too long.

When you add in the elbows, you can get many more variations. With four parts, [ x2-elbows, x2-fists ] You can easily create all kinds of undocumented orders. For instance, take the Outward-Triple Elbow Strike OTES, which is (1) outward Elbow, (2) Same arm fist, (3) other arm fist (..in FCP or FSP position..)

OK, drop #2, and just do (1)Left-Outward Elbow (2) Right-FSP or FCP.
Possible, yes. What will you call it? (so you can abbreviate it)

do the same thing for the Downward-Triple Elbow Strike, which is (1) FCP fist (2) Downward Elbow of other Arm (3) FCP contact of other arm (same arm as the elbow) or a L/R-R order. OK, drop the last fist, so you have a (1) Left-FCP and (2) Right-downward Elbow. that is a legitimate two surface technique, but what will you call it? and is it a SMOOTH motion that easily flows back into the basic rhythm? No way. Most variations I have found are awkward and add little to the hitting experience. I chose not to follow that path.

there lies the dilemma. There are many un-named variations, but I just didn't see the point of expanding on all the variations. And to me, it would all be advanced variations anyway.

There are ENDLESS variations of ways to combine fists and elbows on the bag. Martial artists may create a "Front Double Strike" by joining an outward knife-hand strike and a downward hammer fist with one rebound inbetween. [ I use the term "strike" because the lead fist is not closed but open with extended fingers. the word "punch" implies a closed fist - which is why it is called a "knife hand strike", not a Knife Hand Punch.]
I know a guy who does the Outward Triple Elbow Strike by using a HOOK punch as the third contact, rather than a FSP or FCP. He does that to get into a Hook punching sequence afterward. I believe many combinations still wait to be discovered.

Believe it or not, I did contemplate much of this during the five years of creating the Speed Bag Bible text. Names and abbreviations, along with the teaching sequence (order of presentation changed) changed several times. The current version of the text (5th printing) has been significantly edited from the Original printing. To me, it's a living document and always subject to change. Some of these variations are addressed in the Video's, since they were done later.

Great post. I love it when people question and consider the other possibilities.
Humble thanks.
I may take you up on suggesting updates. I was hesitant to put in my $.02 about your abbreviations when you created the system, and it seems to be pretty well established (10 years since you first published? but I have a "thing" about clarity and redundancy. (I used to be a pretty good programmer-analyst, and am still a good proofreader).
  #5  
Old 10-09-2006, 04:13 PM
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Front Double Punches

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR View Post
...Humble thanks.I may take you up on suggesting updates. I was hesitant to put in my $.02 about your abbreviations when you created the system, and it seems to be pretty well established (10 years since you first published? but I have a "thing" about clarity and redundancy. (I used to be a pretty good programmer-analyst, and am still a good proofreader).
You're not alone. I once got a call from a guy to tell me several of the exercises in the Side Techniques chapter were WRONG. (geez, The nerve of some people....) He said he was working as a ski lift ticket taker, practicing by air punching several of the exercises in the side techniques chapter, and wanted me to know they were wrong.

Well, he was right, they were wrong. In the middle of several I had the wrong Arm indications in the top line. I got the lefts & rights screwed up. He was the first guy I ever met that got that far into it. His Name was/is John Baca, cmoh, who is truly amazing on a speed bag. check out a video clip of him punching. top row far right.
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